crm@duke.UUCP (Charlie Martin) (12/17/85)
In article <743@caip.RUTGERS.EDU> AI.ARISTAR@MCC.ARPA writes: >From: Anthony Aristar <AI.ARISTAR@MCC.ARPA> > > ... Larry Niven's >writing is a good example here: strong female characters occur, but they're >strong in ways which don't contradict traditional concepts of maleness and >femaleness. Teela of the Ringworld Series is *lucky*, not good at swinging >a battle-ax. Only when she metamorphosizes into a protector, with a >dramatically enhanced body and altered psychology, does physical violence >become her forte. I don't think this example applies -- I can't think of a SINGLE EXAMPLE in any of Niven's writing where *any* of the lead characters are good at swinging a battle-ax. So what if Teela can't either? It tells us that Niven doesn't much care for characters who get ahead by swinging a battle-ax. Should he therefore write one who is female just to satisfy you that he isn't a chauvinist? Feh. >So therefore, my earlier question remains unanswered: >what exactly was it that stopped this darker side of fandom from showing >its hairy, macho face? My suspicion is that it is social pressure. An interesting point about this: the only people I've ever known who would admit to being John Norman fans at a con (this after *gasp* like 12 years of active fandom) are women. My hypothesis is that this is because the males who read the things don't have the nerve to admit it -- unless the only people who read them and go to conventions are women, which seems the weaker hypothesis. And by the way, watch it with the sexist references: you've implicitly associated the "darker side of fandom" with the male sex alone -- men are the only persons who commonly have hairy faces. > >>In regards to the woman vs. Goliath combat, have you ever seen what a 5' >>6" martial artist can do against a group of the most awesome brawlers with >>weapons? I have, and I treat them with respect (male or female). > >.... A >Martial Arts contest is far more like ballet or gymnastics than a real >fight. For obvious reasons (e.g. you'd decimate the MA community) you >aren't allowed to land real blows. You're judged on things like speed, >technique, etc, and since women tend to be quicker and more supple than >men, they do pretty well. .... >The only real fight I've ever seen between a >martial-arts trained woman and an untrained but aggressive man was resolved >in a brutish but effective manner -- he used his hands to keep her away, >(she hurt him quite a bit, incidentally, in the meantime), then he grappled >her, and fell on her. Then, as you say, her training was gotten in a dancing class. This is a real problem with martial arts in general -- you can teach the student the moves, but will it work for real. Luckily, most martial arts training results in being able to avoid the fight entirely. But it *is* likely that this occurred because she was unwilling to take the chance of damaging the guy -- afraid to hurt him. This *is* probably due to the fact that she was a woman, but on a social level rather than physical. >So my earlier comment stands: SF >with women eminently successful at violence is (do I dare use this word >here?) fantasy. And I've watched a 5 ft 4 in male Shotokan expert fight an untrained but agressive fellow a foot taller (and with greater reach) and whup him in three count them three blows. I've also fought kumite with a brown belt who was my height (6'3") and an extremely alluring red-headed woman. But I never noticed 'cause I was usually getting knocked on my ass. And I can tell you from near certain knowledge -- she was not an androgyne. Are you seriously contending that women can't win fights against bigger men as a result of fighting skill? Would you say the same thing about smaller males? It just doesn't wash. -- Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm)
li@uw-vlsi.ARPA (Phyllis Li) (12/18/85)
<169@uw-vlsi.ARPA> cancelled from rn.
hutch@hammer.UUCP (Stephen Hutchison) (12/20/85)
In article <743@caip.RUTGERS.EDU> AI.ARISTAR@MCC.ARPA writes: >From: Anthony Aristar <AI.ARISTAR@MCC.ARPA> >>In regards to the woman vs. Goliath combat, have you ever seen what a 5' >>6" martial artist can do against a group of the most awesome brawlers with >>weapons? I have, and I treat them with respect (male or female). > >The Martial arts I know something about: I was involved with them for about >ten years at an earlier stage of my life. I have only these comments. A >Martial Arts contest is far more like ballet or gymnastics than a real >fight. Some martial arts contests are more like ballet or gymnastics. However, this has something to do with the nature of the art. Some forms of karate don't emphasize fast kicks, to appropriate targets (knees and ankles are good) and as a result, are less effective. > But the best kept secret in the field is this: >none of this matters in real violence unless you have the reach to get past >your opponent's defence, and even very scientifically placed blows need to >contain a considerable degree of force to be effective against a powerful, >aggressive opponent. One of the features of jeet kune do, the style developed by Bruce Lee, is that when your opponent sticks his arms or legs out at you, where you can get at them, you take advantage of it by hurting them. Reach is only relevant when you decide to try to hit the internal body, which requires that you actually do the incredibly stupid thing of attacking. >The only real fight I've ever seen between a >martial-arts trained woman and an untrained but aggressive man was resolved >in a brutish but effective manner -- he used his hands to keep her away, >(she hurt him quite a bit, incidentally, in the meantime), then he grappled >her, and fell on her. The only woman I can conceive of winning such a >fight would be some kind of androgyne. When I was studying at the Berkeley AiKiDo Club, an anecdote was being passed around about a woman who had been a member a few years earlier. She had studied for two years. Her job as a welfare social worker took her into some pretty horrid neighborhoods in Oakland, and she was accosted one day by a gang of five or six teenagers ranging from 14 to 16 years of age. She, a slight little 5'2" 110 lb waif, patiently warned the lead boy that she would not allow him to hurt her with his switchblade, and when he lunged, she applied a technique which left him on the ground, her with his knife folded up in her pocket. The gang was completely astonished and one of the others, who had studied karate, tried an attack; she returned him to his friends. Oddly enough, the kids were so impressed by this that she was able to talk them into joining an AiKiDo school in the area, where they learned the non-violent philosophy of that art BEFORE the teacher gave them any of the techniques. I am a 6 foot, 200+ lb male, not particularly puny. One day the 5 year old son of one of the brown-belts was visiting, and I was allowed to practice with him. The kid was easily able to throw me, to apply the redirection techniques, and so forth. I was using just as much force in my attacks as I did with his father. The only area where his smaller size prevented him from applying the techniques was in some of the wrist locks, where he couldn't reach around my wrist properly. So, he couldn't really apply the immobilizations effectively. >So my earlier comment stands: SF >with women eminently successful at violence is (do I dare use this word >here?) fantasy. That depends completely on the woman, on her fighting style, and on the nature of the writing. As far as (for instance) Japanese sword styles, your earlier comment remains completely bogus. Hutch