kfl%mx.lcs.mit.edu@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU (08/10/86)
From: ~joe testa~ <TESTA-J%OSU-20@ohio-state.ARPA>
Who says that the English spoken by "inner city types" is worse
than that spoken by anyone else?!?!
The great majority of potential employers, that's who. Also, the
great majority of teachers, professors, professional people, etc.
If these people are to participate in a major way in the economic
and political life of our country, they had better learn to talk
straight.
Different, yes.
Are you sure it isn't objectively worse? Can it convey the same
thoughts? Can classes in physics, mathematics, history, and business
be conducted in it? Can the professions of banking, programming, law,
and medicine be conducted in it? Is it a legitimate language like
Spanish or Japanese? Or is it a collection of slang and gutter talk,
only able to coherently convey thoughts of sex, gambling, violence,
crime, and drugs?
...Keith
-------testa-j%osu-20@OHIO-STATE.ARPA (08/10/86)
>From: "Keith F. Lynch" <KFL%MX.LCS.MIT.EDU@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU> > > From: ~joe testa~ <TESTA-J%OSU-20@ohio-state.ARPA> > > Who says that the English spoken by "inner city types" is worse than > that spoken by anyone else?!?! > > The great majority of potential employers, that's who. Also, the >great majority of teachers, professors, professional people, etc. > If these people are to participate in a major way in the economic >and political life of our country, they had better learn to talk >straight. Yes, yes, yes. I agree that, to function effectively in this country, one must speak the "standard" American English (for the region you're living in). My objection to the "tone" of your statement (is that possible in written communication??) is that similar statements are often used to argue that the "inner city types" are somehow inferior to everyone else. Since "inner city types" often means "blacks", such statements are often used to argue "blacks are inherently inferior to whites", when in fact it's just the crummy environment they grew up in that hasn't provided them with a decent education. Even if that's not what you meant ( and i have no reason to believe that it is ), that's the way that some other people will interpret it. > Different, yes. > > Are you sure it isn't objectively worse? Can it convey the same >thoughts? Can classes in physics, mathematics, history, and business >be conducted in it? Can the professions of banking, programming, >law, and medicine be conducted in it? Is it a legitimate language >like Spanish or Japanese? Sure, if people in the inner city had learned enough physics or math... Depends what you mean by "worse". Since not too much computer programming, medicine, law, etc. is practiced by inner-city residents, there is no need for their language to be able to convey such concepts. That doesn't make it an "illegitimate" language, just as some obscure language spoken by some people on a South Pacific island isn't illegitimate. Also, remember that many of the "legitimate" languages -- whichever ones those are -- often do not have the proper words for certain things or concepts, so they borrow them from other languages. > Or is it a collection of slang and gutter talk, >only able to coherently convey thoughts of sex, gambling, violence, >crime, and drugs? > ...Keith I suspect that, at this, it might be MORE effective than standard english :-) - joe testa - ------- -------
kfl%mx.lcs.mit.edu@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU (08/10/86)
From: ~joe testa~ <TESTA-J%OSU-20@ohio-state.ARPA>
... such statements are often
used to argue "blacks are inherently inferior to whites", when in
fact it's just the crummy environment they grew up in that hasn't
provided the with a decent education.
I don't believe in inferior races. But I certainly do believe in
inferior cultures, subcultures, ways of thought, ways of speaking,
etc.
We do blacks no favors by telling them that jive talk is just as
good as english and dealing drugs is just as good as working in an
office.
Now government cannot draw such conclusions. They should treat
everyone equally. As far as government is concerned, dealing drugs is
just as good as office work. Only individuals are allowed to make
such value judgement, for instance when choosing who to hire or work
for, or who to rent one's house to or what neighborhood to rent an
apartment or house in.
Individuals are free to set up schools that will teach these
alternative lifestyles. I think that such a school is a very bad
idea, and I vehemently object to being made to pay for it, or to
pay for the re-education of its graduates. But if people who choose
to live a slum lifestyle can find employment, perhaps by employing
eachother to the exclusion of outsiders, more power to them.
...Keith
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