arun@Navajo.ARPA (03/17/85)
Please direct all mail in reply to net.nlang.india and/or the Arpanet address "jmm@su-ai". Thanks. Arun Swami. 16-Mar-85 17:50:29-PST,4460;000000000001 Return-Path: <JMM@SU-AI.ARPA> Received: from UCB-VAX.ARPA by SU-SCORE.ARPA with TCP; Sat 16 Mar 85 17:50:24-PST Received: from ucbernie.ARPA by UCB-VAX.ARPA (4.24/4.42) id AA16026; Fri, 15 Mar 85 13:02:09 pst Received: from SU-AI.ARPA (su-ai.ARPA.ARPA) by ucbernie.ARPA (4.24/4.41) id AA09489; Fri, 15 Mar 85 12:40:23 pst Message-Id: <8503152040.AA09489@ucbernie.ARPA> Date: 15 Mar 85 1239 PST From: Jitendra Malik <JMM@SU-AI.ARPA> Subject: Comments on Sri Rajiv's message To: iitnet@UCBERNIE.ARPA I just got a chance to read the message on net.nlang.india by the right honorable Sri Rajiv relayed to us courtesy Arun Swamy. This message was one of the more annoying pieces of drivel I have ever read. First let me requote `Essentially without roots, a lost generation in some sense, we are trapped between two cultures. We aspire to be westerners, (like Hari Kumar), but cannot ever be fully assimilated because we carry the emotional baggage of our Indianness, and of course there is the small matter of skin colour. (And if you dont believe this matters, I think you're deluding yourself: we should know; we are, along with Egyptians, perhaps the most colour-conscious people on earth.) To a greater or lesser extent, we despise India, Indians and Indianness: there are many among us who take pride in not speaking any Indian language well; and we measure each other by our ability to speak English and by the pucca-ness of our accents.' If Sri Rajiv had limited himself to talking about himself, I would have viewed this as self-awareness come, come late ,but better late than never. However he has magnanimously assumed spokesmanship for all of us... Perhaps all Sri Rajiv can claim to speak for is a particular kind of Indian- rich family background, public school educated, seen poverty from the window of a car, considers himself superior to the Bhaiyya types who mix their v's and W's, thinks that all Biharis are congenital idiots, would consider eating with his hands a sign of ill-learned table manners etc etc. I have been fairly blunt in my statement and I recognise that not all public school types think like that and such a screwed-up thinking is also present among non-public school types too. I regard this sort as a fairly despicable sort of a character. One can understand the origin of such elitist, screwed up attitudes, however one hopes that education, and an attempt to do some reading/thinking about Indian History, the state of India's economy, socio-political analysis of today's society would clear one's mind of such garbage. Unfortunately, it seems that many people have to wait till they see `Jewel in the Crown' till they get aware of the pleasures of British Rule in India. I think that such crass ignorance should be a source of shame to anybody. I think that a line by line rebuttal will serve little purpose. I want to make clear that I am not a fanatical supporter of `Indianness for Indianness sake'-a RSS type belief in the unquestioned greatness of India, Indian Society etc. There are severe problems, which all thinking people should endeavour should try and do something about, at least in their limited contexts. Next time you hear some comment, `Oh what else do you expect from a Bihari' don't just sit there. Next time at your family table you hear some statement like `All Muslims are dirty'- fight back- your parents may consider you impolite but at least you claim some intellectual integrity. This list could go on and on.. I'll end by suggesting some basic reading for Sri Rajiv and his kind. Perhaps it might broaden their horizons from the point where `Jewel' has pushed their enlightenment. RC Dutt's book on British Rule in India gives a detailed account of the `benevolence' of our British Rulers- it is a brilliant account of the plunder and destruction of the Indian Economy. About contemporary India , Dilip Hiro's `Inside India Today' is a bit dated but still quite good. MJ Akbar has written a good book- India, The Siege within'. As far as magazines go, the Economic and Political Weekly carries very in-depth analyses. If you want fiction, perhaps you could go back and read authors like Premchand, Tagore etc . I'd like to apologise to all who may find this message pedantic. Jitendra Malik
ravi@crystal.UUCP (03/19/85)
> > From: Jitendra Malik <JMM@SU-AI.ARPA> > I just got a chance to read the message on net.nlang.india by the right > honorable Sri Rajiv relayed to us courtesy Arun Swamy. > > This message was one of the more annoying pieces of drivel I have ever > read. First let me requote....... > > Perhaps all Sri Rajiv can claim to speak for is a particular kind > of Indian- rich family background, public school educated, seen poverty > from the window of a car, considers himself superior to the Bhaiyya > types who mix their v's and W's, thinks that all Biharis are congenital > > I regard this sort as a fairly despicable sort of a character. One can > > I'll end by suggesting some basic reading for Sri Rajiv and his kind. > Perhaps it might broaden their horizons from the point where `Jewel' > has pushed their enlightenment. RC Dutt's book on British Rule in India > > Jitendra Malik <JMM@SU-AI.ARPA> I have nothing to say about this message. I suggest we all adopt it as a model for how NOT to conduct a discussion over the net. -- ravi@wisconsin (arpa, csnet) -- ihnp4!uwisc!ravi (usenet)
rajeev@sftri.UUCP (S.Rajeev) (03/23/85)
My dear Angry Young Man: Your anger does you credit; your lack of taste does not. And how unfortunate that your note is essentially content-free: that for all of your sound and fury, you do nothing but display your own prejudices! Next time you feel the urge to express yourself, I suggest you think a bit before shooting your mouth off. However, since you have chosen this public forum to vent your spleen, I suppose I have to dignify your harangue with a response. You obviously did not read what I had to say: you tacitly admit this -- > I just got a chance to read.... I guess yours is a knee-jerk response. If you had time to reflect, maybe you would understand. Maybe you'd even spell my name right. You quote me, and thereafter say nothing whatsoever that agrees or disagrees with anything I said. You devote your energies to attacking an image you have formed of me, the accuracy of which you presume with no real evidence. You obviously have an inferiority complex regarding "public school types"; but why on earth drag me into this quarrel between yourself and your Maker? You display another big chip in the shoulder regarding British rule. Most of us view this short period in its proper historical perspective: as a period of 90 years in a 5000-year continuum, it is relatively unimportant. When I think of Indian history, I think of the Guptas, the Pallavas, the Moguls, not the minor episode of the British. I too have read a good deal of Indian history, but, unlike you, I have gained something from this exercise. (Since you seem to be into lists of books, here's one: History of India by Majumdar, Indian History by Romila Thapar and Percival Spear, The Wonder that was India by Basham, Sardar Panikkar's Memoirs, Nehru's Discovery of India, Hinduism by R.C. Zaehner...) As I said before, it's pointless getting emotional over what the British, as all conquerors do, did: everything appropriate to extending their reign. I'm sure that the Aryans did perfectly ghastly things to the conquered Dravidians; so perhaps did the Mauryas and the Moguls to their subjects. But all this is in the distant past. What struck me about 'Jewel' was that the things portrayed there happened within living memory. But for Gandhiji and a few dedicated patriots, we could very well still be in the same situation. It is a thought that humbles one, and makes one realize how much one really has to be thankful for. So my advice to you is: stop getting hung up so much on the British, and try to acquire a sense of proportion. You then trot out a few pious and vacuous homilies: > ... Next time you hear some > comment, `Oh what else do you expect from a Bihari' don't just sit > there. Next time ... you hear some statement like > `All Muslims are dirty' - fight back- .... Yeah, and motherhood and apple pie, too. Kindly refrain from sanctimonious posturing; it's quite tedious. Your "suggested reading" list was most amusing, specifically Dilip Hiro's book. You presumably lived in India for many years, yet you need to regurgitate somebody else's opinions on "contemporary India". And that, someone whose main claim to fame is a couple of mildly titillating novels. Excuse me, but some of us prefer to keep our eyes and ears open, and to form our own views of the world, not acquire them second-hand. > I'd like to apologise to all who may find this message pedantic. "Pedantic" (Merriam-Webster: narrowly, stodgily and often ostentatiously learned) is hardly the word to describe your effusions. Inane or offensive might be closer. This being the net, I have read lots of nonsense, but yours, dear fellow, ought to be framed and hung on a wall. Sincerely, Sri Rajeev. -- ...ihnp4!attunix!rajeev -- usenet ihnp4!attunix!rajeev@BERKELEY -- arpanet Sri Rajeev, SF 1-342, Bell Labs, Summit, NJ 07901. (201)-522-6330.
raghu@ut-sally.UUCP (Raghunath Ramakrishnan) (03/27/85)
In article <386@sftri.UUCP> rajeev@sftri.UUCP (S.Rajeev) writes: >My dear Angry Young Man: > >Your anger does you credit; your lack of taste does not. And how >unfortunate that your note is essentially content-free: that for >all of your sound and fury, you do nothing but display your own >prejudices! Next time you feel the urge to express yourself, I >suggest you think a bit before shooting your mouth off. However, >since you have chosen this public forum to vent your spleen, I >suppose I have to dignify your harangue with a response. > neither your anger nor your taste do you credit. this letter is an exercise in intemperate, personal name calling that leaves a bad taste in the mouth. if the urge to pour vitriol is so overpowering, use mail.