das@ucla-cs.UUCP (02/14/85)
While on a trip around Arizona and New Mexico a few years ago, I observed that
of the 8 motels I stayed in, 3 were run by Indians, and I don't mean Navajos --
I'd usually get to them around 6 or 7 pm, and the aromas wafting to the front
desk from the kitchen in the managers' family quarters were delightful. I
chatted with one fellow who said he used to live in Ventura (about an hour west
of Los Angeles) and moved to Las Cruces, New Mexico, to get away from the city!
While leaving, I noticed that two or three of the dozen or so motels at the
west end of Las Cruces had signs saying "American-owned", which seemed to
indicate some racial problems among the local motel owners.
So my small sample shows that 38% of southwestern motels are (Asian)Indian-run,
in areas with not enough of an Indian population to support even one restau-
rant (e.g. Gallup, New Mexico). Was it just a fluke, or have others observed
this?
-- David Smallberg, das@ucla-cs.ARPA, {ihnp4,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!dasraghu@rlgvax.UUCP (Raghu Raghunathan) (04/02/85)
> > So my small sample shows that 38% of southwestern motels are (Asian)Indian-run, > in areas with not enough of an Indian population to support even one restau- > rant (e.g. Gallup, New Mexico). Was it just a fluke, or have others observed > this? > > -- David Smallberg, das@ucla-cs.ARPA, {ihnp4,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!das I had observed the same when I was traveling in AZ near Flagstaff on the way to the Grand Canyon from Phoenix. I was somewhat intrigued too that the area has so many Indian-run motels, but I can't explain it. - Raghu Raghunathan.
oaf@mit-vax.UUCP (Oded Feingold) (04/04/85)
Maybe the anomalous concentration of Indian ownership is due to their willingness to do the disgusting scutwork and incessant cleaning that go with the territory. That in contrast to us Americans, who are too high class for that sort of stuff. (I should have said Swiss, but the major audience is here in the US). I have noticed the pattern that in a rich country, people of the dominant ethnic group (Swiss, American, Irani (pre-revolution)) decide they're too good for the shitwork, even if they're poor. Perhaps they think they have something better coming, and are willing to wait for it instead of degrading themselves by committing their careers to running a convenience motel. Very few volunteer for jobs demanding a lot of that kind of stuff. Is there a similarly high concentration of Cambodian, Vietnamese, Chinese and other poor-country foreigner ownership in such establishments? When I was in Iran the service establishments were often staffed by Filipinos and Thais. Oh, and Indians. -- Oded Feingold UUCP: mitvax!oaf MIT AI Lab Arpa: oaf%oz@mit-mc.ARPA 545 Tech Sq. AT&T: 617-253-8598 work Cambridge, Mass. 02139 617-371-1796 home (and answering machine)
br@duke.UUCP (Balu Raman) (04/05/85)
In article <4985@mit-vax.UUCP> oaf@mit-vax.UUCP (Oded Feingold) writes: >Maybe the anomalous concentration of Indian ownership is due to their >willingness to do the disgusting scutwork and incessant cleaning that go >with the territory. That in contrast to us Americans, who are too high >class for that sort of stuff. (I should have said Swiss, but the major >audience is here in the US). > What is this guy talking about high class......Look like this i___t has been working too long in AI. I think most Indians operate motels to be their own boss instead of working for racists like this guy. Also most of the Indians who operate motels hire people from this so called high class to do the shit-work. If this guy can get away from his AI and use his real intelligence (if any) to look around, he would be sorry to have posted this stuff here. >I have noticed the pattern that in a rich country, people of the >dominant ethnic group (Swiss, American, Irani (pre-revolution)) decide >they're too good for the shitwork, even if they're poor. Perhaps they >think they have something better coming, and are willing to wait for it >instead of degrading themselves by committing their careers to running a >convenience motel. Very few volunteer for jobs demanding a lot of that >kind of stuff. > r your information, I cannot wait for something better and go on welfare as you high class people seems to be doing. >Is there a similarly high concentration of Cambodian, Vietnamese, Chinese >and other poor-country foreigner ownership in such establishments? When >I was in Iran the service establishments were often staffed by Filipinos >and Thais. Oh, and Indians. While you hunt for your information, why don't you send me names of people of your type for my list of high class people so that I can hire them to do the shit-work in my motels. For others on the net: I could have replied this guy personally but I wanted your reaction to what I feel. I wanted to bringup this kind of topic on the net and wanted to find out if there are a lot of people of this kind around. What are your experiences? >-- >Oded Feingold UUCP: mitvax!oaf >MIT AI Lab Arpa: oaf%oz@mit-mc.ARPA >545 Tech Sq. AT&T: 617-253-8598 work >Cambridge, Mass. 02139 617-371-1796 home (and answering machine)
prem@eagle.UUCP (Swami Devanbu) (04/05/85)
********************************************************************** (A Public Reply, for a public request) Dear Sri Baluram May I suggest that you have your spleen professionally vented ? It will save you (and us) from a possible repeat performance. Thank you. Swami Devanbu
sunil@ut-ngp.UUCP (Sunil Trivedi) (04/05/85)
It seems apparent that there many persons who like to flame. However, let us not start mud-slinging and being rude. Obviously, the word idiot is a popular word and it does have a useful place in the English language. But please refrain from applying that word to others on the net. The language could start worsening. Our friend who first mentioned the 'high class' only was being sarcastic [I hope] and was only trying to show the attitudes that Americans may have towards motelling. Sunil Trivedi sunil@ut-ngp.ARPA sunil@ut-ngp.UUCP Let's try and show a good example like ravi@crystal did during the 'Indian Electorate Series.'
dixit@uscvax.UUCP (Vish) (04/05/85)
> > > > So my small sample shows that 38% of southwestern motels are (Asian)Indian-run, > > in areas with not enough of an Indian population to support even one restau- > > rant (e.g. Gallup, New Mexico). Was it just a fluke, or have others observed > > this? > > -- David Smallberg, das@ucla-cs.ARPA, {ihnp4,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!das > I had observed the same when I was traveling in AZ near Flagstaff on > that the area has so many Indian-run motels, but I can't explain it. > - Raghu Raghunathan. Also most of the those motels are owned by Gujarati families who have come from countries other than India, like Kenya. They have left India long time ago and don't depend on (native) indians for their buisiness. They are very enterprising. Owning real estate/land is very indian. Here one needs enormous investments and technological upkeep for farming; motel business is not so. Also there is slight mistrust among them about currency, be it Rupeee or Dollar, due to their experiences in African countries. Land and gold are the dearest. In AZ, and NM we invariably stayed in motels owned by Patel families. For some time we called them "patel-motels". In the end, they were simply "patels" for us. -vish dixit
sankar@Shasta.ARPA (04/05/85)
(I am an Indian) I have always been under the impression that IF at all, it is we, the Indians who have hang-ups doing "dirty" clean-up jobs. I have seen so many situations of this sort, especially in more traditional set-ups. Examples are gardeners who will not throw garbage away unless the garbage consists of only garden garbage, managers who would not like to be seen cleaning their car etc. While Americans have no hassles at all regarding the type of work they do. I know of a doctor's wife who baby-sits and cleans houses, nobody considers it wrong for someone to work as a waiter or waitress to make some extra money, while they are working on their PhD in Computer Science. And now this guy from Switzerland comes along and gives us a completely turned around version, he says Indians will do any dirty work, while Americans have problems with doing such work. I tell you, this is totally absurd, actually if you see an Indian owning a motel and also doing some sort of menial cleaning up, then he has learnt something good from the Americans, I think the Swiss too should. Incidentally, when one is in places like Arizona or New Mexico, the term "Indian" does not refer to people from India, it refers to the original inhabitants of those parts of the world, namely the Red Indians. This is first hand info, I have been both to Arizona and New Mexico, and if you see a sign that says Indian store, or Indian jewellry, or Indian restaurant, etc. it means Red Indian. In these two states and possibly other neighbouring areas people from India are referred to as "East Indians". If you want our type of food then you must go to an EAST Indian restaurant. It is possible that the guy who saw so many Indian stuff in these two states really saw a lot of Red Indian establishments and mistook them for East Indian stuff. Last week I went to Santa Fe, which is the capital of New Mexico and saw all these Red Indians hawking their wares on the pavements, reminds one of the good old days back in India!! Sriram.
percy@amdcad.UUCP (Percy Irani) (04/06/85)
> dominant ethnic group (Swiss, American, Irani (pre-revolution)) decide ***** > -- > Oded Feingold UUCP: mitvax!oaf > MIT AI Lab Arpa: oaf%oz@mit-mc.ARPA > 545 Tech Sq. AT&T: 617-253-8598 work > Cambridge, Mass. 02139 617-371-1796 home (and answering machine) Please make sure you use the correct word. When you say Irani you could be meaning a lot of Zoroastrians (Parsis) in India who have nothing to do with "revolution". India (in the best of my knowledge) has had no revolution in 24 years (as far back as I can remember). I would strongly recommend you to use Iranian rather than Irani next time.
srradia@watmath.UUCP (sanjay Radia) (04/06/85)
In article <4985@mit-vax.UUCP> oaf@mit-vax.UUCP (Oded Feingold) writes: >Maybe the anomalous concentration of Indian ownership is due to their >willingness to do the disgusting scutwork and incessant cleaning that go >with the territory. That in contrast to us Americans, who are too high >class for that sort of stuff. (I should have said Swiss, but the major >audience is here in the US). >...... >instead of degrading themselves by committing their careers to running a >convenience motel....... There is nothing degrading about doing honest work. And that is one thing that can be learned from the north americans. Indians have some of the biggest hangups about doing cleaning jobs - this guy is out to lunch when he says that Indians are willing to do such jobs. As far as I am concerned I rather have dinner with a janitor than with a top-notch executive of some multi-national industry, who makes shady deals, ignores pollution laws and makes this planet a mess, has a branch plant in south africa where he slaves the natives (he would do that in US if he could get away with it), supports army take-overs in south america in the name of business, etc. I am not saying that all business executives do this, but am just using this as an example to show that a man's job and clothes tell you very little about him. An honest janitor is a much better person than a dishonest PhD. At least he is not doing "research" to create bombs (couldn't resist adding this last line in -- hold the flames because they will go to /dev/null). -- sanjay UUCP: ...!{ utzoo,decvax,ihnp4,allegra}!watmath!srradia ARPA: srradia%watmath%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa CSNET: srradia%watmath@waterloo.CSNET
debray@sbcs.UUCP (Saumya Debray) (04/07/85)
> In article <4985@mit-vax.UUCP> oaf@mit-vax.UUCP (Oded Feingold) writes: >>Maybe the anomalous concentration of Indian ownership is due to their >>willingness to do the disgusting scutwork and incessant cleaning that go >>with the territory. That in contrast to us Americans, who are too high >>class for that sort of stuff. (I should have said Swiss, but the major >>audience is here in the US). >> > What is this guy talking about high class......Look like this i___t has > been working too long in AI. I think most Indians operate motels to be their > own boss instead of working for racists like this guy. Also most of the > Indians who operate motels hire people from this so called high class to > do the shit-work. If this guy can get away from his AI and use his real > intelligence (if any) ... Um ... I think some satire was lost in transmission, in Feingold's original article ... 'Nuff said. -- Saumya Debray SUNY at Stony Brook uucp: {allegra, hocsd, philabs, ogcvax} !sbcs!debray CSNet: debray@sbcs
san@peora.UUCP (Sanjay Tikku) (04/08/85)
> In article <4985@mit-vax.UUCP> oaf@mit-vax.UUCP (Oded Feingold) writes: > >Maybe the anomalous concentration of Indian ownership is due to their > >willingness to do the disgusting scutwork and incessant cleaning that go > >with the territory. That in contrast to us Americans, who are too high > I think most Indians operate motels to be their > own boss instead of working for racists like this guy. > > >Is there a similarly high concentration of Cambodian, Vietnamese, Chinese > >and other poor-country foreigner ownership in such establishments? When > >I was in Iran the service establishments were often staffed by Filipinos > >and Thais. Oh, and Indians. > > While you hunt for your information, why don't you send me names of people > of your type for my list of high class people so that I can hire them to do > the shit-work in my motels. > Balu Raman : Some of the points raised in the article quoted by you are definitely valid. If you leave the "racist" statements out of it there is still some element of truth element left in that article. I am refering to the fact that the "POTELS" (the ones I have encountered) are positively dirty and disgusting. I don't intend to get into the reasons for that as the majority of the audience of this net probably knows them. Also, I would rather spend some extra money and stay in a cleaner place. If some American has a negative comment about Indians, you are not helping very much by jumping on their back. It is upto us to educate them that opinions about Indians should not be extrapolated just from looking at POTEL people. Sanjay Tikku Perkin-Elmer,SDC,Orlando allegra!pesnta!peora!san
wcs@ho95b.UUCP (Bill Stewart) (04/08/85)
Balu Raman (duke!br) seems to have misinterpreted Oded Feingold's article: > > In article <4985@mit-vax.UUCP> oaf@mit-vax.UUCP (Oded Feingold) writes: > > Maybe the anomalous concentration of Indian ownership is > > due to their willingness to do the disgusting scutwork and > > incessant cleaning that go with the territory. That in > > contrast to us Americans, who are too high class for that > > sort of stuff. (I should have said Swiss, but the major > > audience is here in the US). > What is this guy talking about high class......Look like this > i___t has been working too long in AI. I think most Indians > operate motels to be their own boss instead of working for > racists like this guy. Also most of the Indians who operate > motels hire people from this so called high class to do the > shit-work. ........ At first glance, OAF's article looks insulting, but he's not saying "You <ethnic>s enjoy doing shitwork and we Americans are better than that"; he's saying that there are a lot of jobs in this country (and Switzerland, and Iran), that are done by immigrants who are willing to work hard, even though there are <dominant ethnic group> members who may be unemployed but consider themselves too good for that sort of work. During periods when there have been lots of immigrants to this country, they have often started at the bottom, whether because they have no skills or because they don't have the cash to start businesses or because a racist society only lets <ethnic>s work at low-prestige jobs. Some of the classic examples in this country are Chinese hand laundries, Hispanic migrant-labor farm workers, Irish ditch-diggers - these are not saying that "that's all the <ethnic>s are good for", but these people have been willing to do "lower-caste" work when "better" jobs are hard to get. Bill Stewart ihnp4!ho95c!wcs
anjaneya@t4test.UUCP (Anjaneya Thakar) (04/11/85)
> From: oaf@mit-vax.UUCP (Oded Feingold) > Date: 3 Apr 85 23:25:18 GMT > > Maybe the anomalous concentration of Indian ownership is due to their > willingness to do the disgusting scutwork and incessant cleaning that go > with the territory. That in contrast to us Americans, who are too high > class for that sort of stuff. (I should have said Swiss, but the major > audience is here in the US). I think I am going to start another controversy here but the taste in which Mr. Feingold has written his article demands a rebuttal. To say I disagree with what this guy has to say is putting it very mildly. According to me this person has absolutely no idea of the kind of status the Indian community has in the US. He is so ignorant that he even forgets that he is nothing better than a loud-mouthed jerk who derives pleasure by bad- mouthing other people who work hard in this country. Mr. Oaf please look around and you will find Indians (and Chinese and Thais and Vietnamese etc.) in every field of arts and science. A quick visit to the high-tech areas of Northern California and Mass. will show you the amount of work being done by these people. It is people like you who make this world a lousy place to live. In fact, I am not going to waste any more of my time here. Look around and think before you cross the street next time, you shit-head.
raghu@ut-sally.UUCP (Raghunath Ramakrishnan) (04/12/85)
In article <1385@t4test.UUCP> anjaneya@t4test.UUCP (Anjaneya Thakar) writes: ( re: oded feingold's article) > >It is people like you who make this world a lousy place to live. >In fact, I am not going to waste any more of my time here. Look around and >think before you cross the street next time, you shit-head. oded has taken so much crap from people who have no comprehension of either sarcasm or courtesy that i think it's time he received an apology. the sarcasm that most of these flamers have missed has already been pointed out. however, no matter what he said, he had a right to say it. if anyone disagrees with his views (or their interpretation of his views) they are free to state their objections. would it be asking too much if one asked for objective rebuttals rather than personal remarks? this net has seen an increasing volume of offensive articles, and i think i speak for the vast majority of us when i say that i'm disgusted. if you cannot express yourself without obscenities, stay off the net.
das@ucla-cs.UUCP (04/17/85)
In article <793@peora.UUCP> san@peora.UUCP (Sanjay Tikku) writes: > > I am refering to > the fact that the "POTELS" (the ones I have encountered) are > positively dirty and disgusting. I don't intend to get into the > reasons for that as the majority of the audience of this net probably > knows them. Also, I would rather spend some extra money > and stay in a cleaner place. > After I posted my orginal article asking if the 3 out of 8 motels I stayed at in the American Southwest being run by (Asian) Indians was a fluke, I learned not only about the phenomenon of Patel motels, but also the stereotype of their proprietors. While your experience may fit the stereotype, mine didn't -- two of the motels were fine, and the other was so-so, but certainly not "dirty and disgusting". In fact, all were listed in the Auto Club guide, which is why we stopped at them instead of their neighbors. [Except in Las Cruces, New Mexico -- the first listed place we were about to stop at had a big sign "American- owned"; we figured that such an obvious appeal to racism shouldn't be rewarded with our patronage. I expected the slighted people to be Latinos, and was surprised to find out the competition next door was Indian-run.] -- David Smallberg, das@ucla-cs.ARPA, {ihnp4,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!das
venu@umcp-cs.UUCP (Venugopala R DASIGI) (04/23/85)
I agree with Bill Stewart, in that Feingold didn't seem to intend any offense. --- Venu Dasigi