martillo@mit-hector.UUCP (Yakim Martillo) (11/09/85)
Muslims over the past millenium have subjected non-Muslims under their rule to systematic humiliation and degradation which are mandated by all schools of Islamic jurisprudence. Further the contempt which Islam encourages Muslims to feel toward non-Muslims has caused periodic persecution and pogroms directed at non-Muslims in all corners of the Islamic world. In the previous century, the only decent places in the Muslim world to be a non-Muslim were those lands most strongly under European (or Chinese or Hindu) domination. Subjugation and conquest of Muslim lands by Europeans or other non-Muslims is therefore from the standpoint of the oppressed peoples of the world a progressive act. In the case of Israel, most of the Jews in this nation have origins in the Islamic regions least under the domination or influence of Europeans, Chinese or Hindus. Therefore the Israeli population has a long history of humiliation, degradation and persecution at the hands of barbaric Islamic overlords. Legitimately Jews may view the PLO and all attacks by Muslims upon Jews as part of the continuum and the modern expression of traditional Islamic Jew-baiting. Further, Islamic nations periodically declare war on Israel and threaten the Jews with anihilation. Moreover, no Islamic political, intellectual or religious leader has ever conceded that the mandated Islamic treatment of non-Muslims is a reprehensible and wrong way of dealing with non-Muslims and that just perhaps non-Muslims, who have been or are under Islamic subjugation, might have some legitimate grievances against the Islamic world and that they might have some legitimate claims for compenstation for Islamic mistreatment. In fact, in no country ruled by Muslims are non-Muslims treated on terms of mutual respect and equality by the dominant Muslims (and I have lived in Turkey and Tunisia). Until Muslims renounce sleazeball Islam and Muslims change there scuzz attitudes toward non-Muslims, Israel, India, Singapur, the Soviet Union, China, Yugoslavia and other nations in similar situation have a legitimate right and obligation to their non-Muslim populations to suppress Muslims under their control. The removal of territory from Islamic control is therefore a positive achievement for the good of all humanity and an act of which any nation should be proud.
aouriri@ittvax.ATC.ITT.UUCP (Chedley Aouriri) (11/14/85)
> > been or are under Islamic subjugation, might have some legitimate grievances > against the Islamic world and that they might have some legitimate claims > for compenstation for Islamic mistreatment. > The following identity is FALSE : Muslim = Arab = Anti-semitic = Anti-israel However, it is conveniently used by political demagogues to further their own agenda.
rajeev@sfmag.UUCP (S.Rajeev) (11/16/85)
Yakim Martillo writes: > > Muslims over the past millenium have subjected non-Muslims under their > rule to systematic humiliation and degradation which are mandated by > all schools of Islamic jurisprudence. Further the contempt which Islam > encourages Muslims to feel toward non-Muslims has caused periodic persecution > and pogroms directed at non-Muslims in all corners of the Islamic world. ... and more somewhat extreme anti-Muslim views. I would like to request that such displays of intolerance be kept off net.lang.india: we have plenty of our own home-grown prejudices, and have no need to embroil ourselves in the politics of West Asia. Bigotry is ugly whether it is anti-Jew or anti-Muslim. Incidentally, I think Indians can afford to be sanctimonious about their tolerance to Judaism: India is probably the only country where Jews were always allowed to live in peace. Witness the 500-year-old synagogue in Cochin, or the (now much reduced) Jewish community in that area that has existed, I believe, since the time of the destruction of the Second Temple(?).
martillo@mit-hector.UUCP (Yakim Martillo) (11/17/85)
>> >> been or are under Islamic subjugation, might have some legitimate grievances >> against the Islamic world and that they might have some legitimate claims >> for compenstation for Islamic mistreatment. >> > >The following identity is FALSE : > >Muslim = Arab = Anti-semitic = Anti-israel > >However, it is conveniently used by political demagogues to >further their own agenda. Since I never made the equation, this particular reply is a particularly slimy attempt to avoid a legitimate issue. A system like Islam may have bad aspects. In India for example caste and the suttee have been in the past part of the system of Hinduism. Criticism of such practices is legitimate. Calling criticism of such practices bigotry or illegtimate is pure intellectual cowardice or dishonesty. Since most Muslims and Jews who debate middle eastern issues constantly engage in intellectual dishonesty, I am unsurprised that such intellectual dishonesty has resurfaced. I personally have no interest in European Jewish Zionism and consider it basically a wrong-headed and disgusting movement (although not nearly as wrong-headed and disgusting as Arab Nationalism or Islamic Fundamentalism). Once European Intellectuals had the courage to attack shibboleths and oppose the crudities of, say, pre-Enlightenment Christianity. People like Hobbes, Lockes, Montesquiue, Rousseau, Voltaire, Montaigne etc. demanded change. I consider myself in this tradition. There will be no peace in the Middle East until there are some fundamental changes in Islamic attitudes, nor do Muslims have any right to claim rights such as national self-determination until they show some ability to live on terms of mutual respect and equality with the non-Muslim minorities who live among them.
agrawal@acf2.UUCP (Mukul Babu Agrawal) (11/21/85)
> >>> >>> been or are under Islamic subjugation, might have some legitimate grievances >>> against the Islamic world and that they might have some legitimate claims >>> for compenstation for Islamic mistreatment. >>> >> >>The following identity is FALSE : >> >>Muslim = Arab = Anti-semitic = Anti-israel >> >>However, it is conveniently used by political demagogues to >>further their own agenda. > >Since I never made the equation, this particular reply is a particularly >slimy attempt to avoid a legitimate issue. A system like Islam may have >bad aspects. In India for example caste and the suttee have been in the >past part of the system of Hinduism. Criticism of such practices is ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >legitimate. ^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >Calling criticism of such practices bigotry or illegtimate is pure ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >intellectual cowardice or dishonesty. Since most Muslims and Jews who ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ However , Mr. Martillo's slandering of the Muslim religion did not have any specific practices but was nothing but HATE-MAIL . Like Muslim, christianity or the Hindu religion , every religion has its bad points and the religion itself cannot be derided. >From: martillo@mit-hector.UUCP (Yakim Martillo) > >In fact, in no country ruled by Muslims are non-Muslims treated on >terms of mutual respect and equality by the dominant Muslims (and I >have lived in Turkey and Tunisia). Until Muslims renounce sleazeball >Islam and Muslims change there scuzz attitudes toward non-Muslims, >Israel, India, Singapur, the Soviet Union, China, Yugoslavia and >other nations in similar situation have a legitimate right and >obligation to their non-Muslim populations to suppress Muslims under >their control...... I do not think that such attitudes can be attributed to the Muslims more than any other religion (especially christianity). As to the mention of the rights of countries to suppress the Muslim population,I was just wondering if Mr. Martillo is an Israeli. I would also like to add that I do not believe that any countries have such rights and nor do I believe that India does suppress the Muslim population of India in any way. Mukul