sriram@cmu-ri-cive.ARPA (Duvvuru Sriram) (08/14/85)
Professor T. K. Oommen of Jawaharlal Nehru University, Delhi, is doing a questionare on Brain Drain. He would appreciate people working in this country for a year or so to fill this questionare. He is submitting the report to UNESCO and details you provide won't to released to anyone. If you are willing (i.e. have time) to fill the questionare, please send me mail. The questionare is about 6 pages long and might take you about 30 min. to fill. Sriram@cmu-ri-cive.arpa
raghu@ut-sally.UUCP (Raghu Ramakrishnan) (03/23/86)
In article <642@cheviot.uucp> santosh@cheviot.newcastle.ac.uk (Santosh Shrivatava) writes: >the brain drain. I have no solution though. >Santosh Shrivastava Nor do I. But this discussion (btw, I think this is round 2 - we went over all this a long time ago) has so far focussed on the "morality" of benefitting from Indian education and using that to fatten one's (American) bank balance. With all respect, I think that this is both simplistic and futile. Few (excepting intrepid souls like Ali :-) would argue that settling in the US after taking advantage of (scarce!) Indian resources is ethically less than admirable. But frankly, few give a damn about ethics. It has been my experience that people are essentially selfish. I merely state this as a probable fact. I don't think it's necessarily bad, but let's not get into another futile discussion! What influence the average person are his personal concerns - depending on his priorities and tastes, the company, the culture, family, professional opportunities, and of course, money. Patriotism and ethics, you will notice, are not high on this list. They rarely even make it there (or maybe they do - those occasional twinges, you know. But perhaps their importance in rhetoric balances their absence in pragmatics.). If you want those "talented", "motivated" people, you must give their talents an outlet, and you must give them the motives they need. C'est la vie. Dammit, you expect patriotism and ethics to influence a decision that affect's one's life and career when they rarely succeed in making you pay the correct customs duty? The answer, my friends, is not blowing in the wind; but at least, let's be honest with ourselves. And incidentally, note that I have not limited my cynicism to Indians - I think everyone is equally selfish (but of course, some are more selfish that others :~). For the record, I enjoyed the privilege (for once, no sarcasm intended) of attending IIT Madras. If I go back, it will be due to family reasons. - raghu ramakrishnan
baparao@uscvax.UUCP (Bapa Rao) (03/23/86)
In article <633@epistemi.UUCP> mukesh@epistemi.UUCP (Mukesh Patel) writes: >In article <614@philabs.UUCP> >>> According to the Dean of Undergraduate Affairs at >>> IIT Delhi, Prof. Ray, "the Indian government must >>> do something to tackle with this problem... We >>> can ask students seeking admission to the IITs to >>> sign a bond to serve the nation for a minimum >>> period of 10 years. > >I have no idea by how much the Indian state subsidises these students' >education but surely there can be nothing wrong in a country demanding >that its graduates having taken advantage of the system do their >bit for it. Ali's comment > The IITs are HEAVILY subsidized. A very rough ballpark figure per year (in rupees) Academic staff: (including professors, and support staff) 10 professor-years per group of 50 students gives 10 x 36000/50 = 7200 General engineering equipment (estimating approx. 1 oscilloscope-equivalent per student per year -- I didn't actually go out and price an oscilloscope, I guess it would cost around the same as a good color TV): 5000 I left out computer system acquisition and maintenance costs altogether. Also left out general maintenance and overhead associated with the institute's buildings, security, and so on. Conservatively, this works out to Rs. 12000 or so per student per year, which is Rs. 60,000 for 5 year B.Tech., probably about the same for the more intense 4 year B.Tech., since it would seem that the amount of training given to the students in the latter is actually improved (and hence more expensive: I don't know of any big breakthrough in improving efficiency of teaching at engineering schools). When I went to IIT, tuition was Rs. 200 per year, I paid a total of Rs. 1000 for my entire engineering education, which is BETWEEN 1 AND 2 PERCENT OF THE ACTUAL COST. I am pretty sure that my estimate is very conservative. I expect the real figure to be below 1%. >It also fattens ones bank balance. Let's call a spade a spade. I bet >about 90% of you expats would not mind working in India if only the >pay was comparable to US. > Yup. Tell it like it is. >You got it! That's why the "learned professor" would like to >see you lot stick around in India to do your bit for YOUR country. ... >So when is your bit of 18% going to go over and repay the Indian >Govt? Perhaps the issue is whether you care enough about India >and its people rather than whether you should repay anything to >the Indian Govt. The Govt, I am sure Ali is well aware, raises the >money from the people with which it then educates a small elite >who more often than not simply packs up and buggers off to foreign >lands because there is no PERSONAL advantages to be gained by >remaining behind once they get their first/second degrees. > >I am surprised that these students fail to notice that in providing them >with the best education and facilities that India can afford the >country as a whole makes sacrifices in other areas such as medical >care and primary education. A lot of politicians and academic >stomach the elitism of further education in India in the hope that >the product of it could be deployed to improve the lot of the >rest of the less fortunate population. > >Instead of which the Indian people get a kick in the balls which >is what remarks like the following add up to. [ Remarks deleted ] [Flame on] Make no mistake, babies die of malnutrition and childhood diseases, grow up retarded, underclass youths get substandard education or no education at all and grow up to be frustrated losers who frequently riot, and one reason is that WE are able to live well and occassionally jerk off on the net with highfalutin intellectual chitchat about how ignorant and backward our compatriots "back home" are. It is good once in a while to see someone like Mukesh Patel lay it on the line. Not that this will give us hypocrites more than a good laugh. I doubt that there is anyone out there (self included) who actually lays awake nights, tossing and turning from the pangs of guilt arising from our SYSTEMATIC AND THOUGHTLESS PLUNDER OF THE NATION'S FUTURE. [Flame off] A possible solution to the problem might be to actually stop the subsidies and charge the students a realistic tuition for their college education, with the government providing loans and scholarships to deserving and needy aspirants (sort of like the student loan program in the U.S.). No one leaves until he/she has paid back what he/she owes the government, plus interest. If there is no realistic possibility of repaying a loan of Rs. 60000 over a reasonable period of time with a salary of Rs. 2000 a month and still make ends meet, the government should be allowed to take it out of your hide, by giving you credit for employing your engineering and other skills in community-development related projects side-by-side with your actual 40 hour a week job or whatever. An extension of the idea would involve the setting up of a Rural Development Administration (outfits like that are already in place, but I don't know to what extent they actively seek to involve college students and graduates who don't actually choose to go into government service and end up, usually to their horror, in the boonies) which lets you work off your loan during (e.g., over summer vacation) and immediately following your education, in development projects in the countryside. Note that I am deliberately ruling out the possibility of making dollars abroad and remitting those to pay off the student loan: this is contrary to the spirit of my approach, since India should not be in the business of manufacturing cheap, high-quality engineering graduates for export. That is no business at all: can anyone hoping to stay in business afford to sell off his plant equipment, even at a profit? Yet that is exactly what India is doing right now. A side benefit of this approach would be to provide the educational establishment the feedback needed to assess the relevance of the educational system to national development needs. The precise skills and training that are appropriate to specific classes of developmental tasks and which are lacking in the existing approach, can be identified in the field (as it were). In addition to keeping higher education costs down and helping national development and aiding the design of an appropriate educational system, the above approach would also benefit the young middle and upper-middle class Indian by getting him/her more closely involved with the community and the "real" nation at large, and let him identify more closely with his/her society. I have in mind not just the phoren-oriented, but also the bulk of Indian middle class youths (who are still in India) and lead a generally humdrum and unfulfilling life (No flames, that's just my impression.) and are alienated from the "real" India. Regarding the overall effect of this approach on brain drain, at worst it can be expected to mitigate its effects. In the best case, it might reduce it to a trickle. It just might be that if one is deeply involved with, and committed to, his/her people, it is more difficult to just up and leave. --Bapa Rao.
S35@PSUVM.BITNET (03/25/86)
One figure which I remember: The Indian government spends on average
Lines: 7
20 times as much on an IITian than on an engineering graduate from other
schools. The ratio for an average science or arts graduate to an IITian is
larger. There is a suggestion that IITs be completely transformed to
posgraduate schools. That would not solve the problem. If somebody feels
strongly that he owes some money or services back to the government, he
can offcourse volunteer his services to some govt. organizations.
apte@duke.UUCP (Jitendra Apte) (03/27/86)
Several years ago every other medical student found it fit to leg it to the US after completing MBBS. This came to an end as soon as the concerned organization stopped conducting the ECFMG ( I think that's the name ) exam in India . Ofcourse the tide of Indian Doctors moving to the US was also checked by the fact that very few were granted visas. This makes me believe that a practical way to check the migration of IIT graduates to this country is to ban the administration of GRE in India . Comments ?
sridhar@tekecs.UUCP (S. Sridhar) (03/28/86)
> > Several years ago every other medical student found it fit to leg it > to the US after completing MBBS. This came to an end as soon as the concerned > organization stopped conducting the ECFMG ( I think that's the name ) exam in > India . Ofcourse the tide of Indian Doctors moving to the US was also checked > by the fact that very few were granted visas. > This makes me believe that a practical way to check the migration > of IIT graduates to this country is to ban the administration of GRE in > India . > Comments ? Some 2-3 yrs ago, there was strong rumors that GRE is also in the banning phase. But apparently they were just that, rumors. I hear that notwithstanding the ECFMG ban, some well-heeled medicos leg it to Manila/Lahore etc to take the exam. Well ? -- S. Sridhar sridhar%spy@tektronix.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa
mvramakrishn@watdaisy.UUCP (Rama) (03/28/86)
> > Several years ago every other medical student found it fit to leg it > to the US after completing MBBS. This came to an end as soon as the concerned > organization stopped conducting the ECFMG ( I think that's the name ) exam in > India . Ofcourse the tide of Indian Doctors moving to the US was also checked > by the fact that very few were granted visas. > This makes me believe that a practical way to check the migration > of IIT graduates to this country is to ban the administration of GRE in > India . > Comments ? My summary of this discussion is that, We are (those here from india) all brainy guys! We are smart (we have already come to greener pastures). We are patriotic (we want other brainy guys to stay back to serve the country - our mother land?) -------------- It should be noted that many people from IIT/IISc who go join industries move to US after a few years. (This is atleast true from my batch of students. I came here after working for 5 years in indian industry. I know several others who came between 1 and 5 years after leaving IISc) Money is certainly one of the reason; But many people have left India for other reasons(I don't want to go into all the different reasons). --------------- The budget of IISc was about $2 million per year (2 crore rupees). The money repatriated from indians abroad is about $1 billion (approximate) - precious Foreign Exchange to buy high tech machinery etc, badly needed by indian industry. ---- If an indian spends $20,000 in India (earned outside India), probably he is paying back the money govt spent educating him. --------------- I recall one of the participant in a debate (in IISc) said "The problem is not of brain drain but of DRAINED BRAINS" (She was an arts student; the topic of debate was some thing like "The problem of scientific brain drain"). ---------------- Many of the technological advances of the west do reach poorer countries like India; One may look at the brain drain as the contribution of the poorer countries to the global technological advancement (benifiting the whole of mankind). the BEST brains should be at the BEST places for advancing science and technology. (I am not saying which is the BEST place!) -------------- ======================================= Most of the above are facts/my observations The solutions should be aimed at the root cause of the problem. If GRE is banned, people may find it difficult to go to USA. But, how about universities in countries like Canada, UK, Australia, ... which do not require GRE. (I have heard of many people going to Singapore etc to write ECFMG) --------------------------- Ramakrishna M.V., Univ. of Waterloo, Ont, Canada. ---------------------------
ravi@crystal.UUCP (03/30/86)
In article <7058@duke.UUCP>, apte@duke.UUCP (Jitendra Apte) writes: > > Several years ago every other medical student found it fit to leg it > to the US after completing MBBS. This came to an end as soon as the concerned > organization stopped conducting the ECFMG ( I think that's the name ) exam in > India . Ofcourse the tide of Indian Doctors moving to the US was also checked > by the fact that very few were granted visas. > This makes me believe that a practical way to check the migration > of IIT graduates to this country is to ban the administration of GRE in > India . > Comments ? The American Medical Association appears to be the main force both behind the restrictions on where the ECFMG is administered, as well as the fact that visas are hard to come by if you are a medico. (While the justification of course, is that foreign medical graduates are not quite up to par with American medical graduates, it seems obvious that there is an ulterior economic motive.) The AMA appears to be a lobby powerful enough to get whatever it wants: In his book, Jimmy Carter calls the AMA just about the most powerful lobby he had to deal with. It has certainly done better than any other labour union in the country in obtaining quotas on foreign imports. I have a feeling that similar results will be hard to acheive in the case of engineers and scientists unless there is a force comparable to the AMA that lobbies against letting them come into this country. Certainly, the Indian government could take the initiative in banning the administration of the GRE in India. This would however require a system similar to the "exit visa" system prevalent in some countries to ensure that students can come here when appropriate. I really do not think that would be a desirable system for us to adopt in India. Besides, banning the GRE effectively may require the co-operation of the neigbouring countries at the very least. I am also not so sure that the Indian government would have succeeded very well on its own in preventing medicos from coming here. I wonder if others on the net feel the same way.