cramer@kontron.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) (07/24/85)
> > Hitler and Mussolini came to power by election, not by coup. While > > Hitler had no good intentions, I suspect Mussolini may have, but evil > > tends to build on its self. > > > > Clayton Cramer > > We seem to have uncovered a vein of libertarian mythology here. No > sooner have I had to correct <mike on Hitler's accession to power > than Clayton chimes in to add Mussolini to their pantheon (or pandemonium) > of democratically elected dictators. Just in case any of you might take > Clayton seriously out there, I'd like to briefly lay out some historical > facts of the matter. The Fascists managed to win only 35 out of 535 > seats in the Chamber of Deputies in the election of 1921. Mussolini > seized power the following year by mobilizing his Fascist militias in > his "March on Rome", openly challenging the authority of the weak > coalition government and threatening to lay siege to the capital in the > name of restoring social order. The King caved in and asked Mussolini > to form a government, rather than risk civil war. > Wrong again, Baba. The Fascists, it is true, held only 35 seats --- but they had more seats than any other party! The "March on Rome" was a celebration of the Fascist victory. The Fascists formed a government in coalition with other parties. The election "reforms" of the Fascists did make the next elections very unfree --- but the process by which those "reforms" took place were legal. > All tyrants want constitutional legitimacy. Both Hitler and Mussolini > managed to secure something like it; in Hitler's case by duping larger > parties into thinking they could co-opt his movement, and in Mussolini's > case by a (seemingly) viable blackmail threat of insurrection. Neither > of them were elected to power. > > Baba Baba, it's time to go to your local library and read some history.
baba@spar.UUCP (Baba ROM DOS) (07/27/85)
> > > Hitler and Mussolini came to power by election, not by coup. While > > > Hitler had no good intentions, I suspect Mussolini may have, but evil > > > tends to build on its self. > > > > > > Clayton Cramer > > > > (In Italy) The Fascists managed to win only 35 out of 535 > > seats in the Chamber of Deputies in the election of 1921. Mussolini > > seized power the following year by mobilizing his Fascist militias in > > his "March on Rome", openly challenging the authority of the weak > > coalition government and threatening to lay siege to the capital in the > > name of restoring social order. The King caved in and asked Mussolini > > to form a government, rather than risk civil war. > > > Wrong again, Baba. The Fascists, it is true, held only 35 seats --- but > they had more seats than any other party! > > Clayton Cramer For someone so fond of admonishing people to read, you sure do fabricate an awful lot of information. In the election in question, the Socialists won 123 seats, and the Populists 108. > The "March on Rome" was a celebration of the Fascist victory. Well, they certainly took their time about it. Between the elections of May 1921 and the "celebration" of October 1922, Italy had three prime ministers: Giolitti, Bonomi, and Facta. Baba
baba@spar.UUCP (Baba ROM DOS) (07/29/85)
> > Oh sure there's a slippery slope for anyone who wants to pass prescriptive > > laws. Maybe their lust for more prescriptive laws (politicians as > > capitalists, I guess) will lead to a tightening noose which would > > someday equal dictatorship. > > > > It's never happened (maybe in Switzerland? :-)). Dictatorships are > > established not by politicians following slippery slopes, but rather > > by coups in times of extreme crisis. Dictators come as saviors, > > not as well-meaning limited liberal politicians. The kind of > > dictatorship that mike fears has never happened. > > Hitler and Mussolini came to power by election, not by coup. While > Hitler had no good intentions, I suspect Mussolini may have, but evil > tends to build on its self. > > Clayton Cramer We seem to have uncovered a vein of libertarian mythology here. No sooner have I had to correct <mike on Hitler's accession to power than Clayton chimes in to add Mussolini to their pantheon (or pandemonium) of democratically elected dictators. Just in case any of you might take Clayton seriously out there, I'd like to briefly lay out some historical facts of the matter. The Fascists managed to win only 35 out of 535 seats in the Chamber of Deputies in the election of 1921. Mussolini seized power the following year by mobilizing his Fascist militias in his "March on Rome", openly challenging the authority of the weak coalition government and threatening to lay siege to the capital in the name of restoring social order. The King caved in and asked Mussolini to form a government, rather than risk civil war. All tyrants want constitutional legitimacy. Both Hitler and Mussolini managed to secure something like it; in Hitler's case by duping larger parties into thinking they could co-opt his movement, and in Mussolini's case by a (seemingly) viable blackmail threat of insurrection. Neither of them were elected to power. Baba