dubois@uwmacc.UUCP (Paul DuBois) (01/11/85)
I received the following message in the mail recently. I am
posting it because I think it is a thoughtful response, certainly
a level above some of the others that have appeared (that's not
to put them ALL down, but some were just raving). Note at end
that the author granted permission to post.
------
[DuBois]
What about groups such as Jews for Jesus?
I regard such groups as oxymoronic in name, and deceptive in practice.
A rabbi I once knew felt that the name made as much sense as, say, "Hookers
for Chastity".
What about people such as Julie Harazduk?
She's a Christian, who was once Jewish.
How about Saul of Tarsus? Did he stop being Jewish when he became
a Christian?
A more complex question -- by today's standards, yes; by the standards of
the time, he probably did not feel that way.
Over the last 2000 years, Judaism and Christianity have in a sense co-evolved.
That is, there are precepts and practices in Judaism that exist solely as a
response to Christianity. For example, except in a very restricted fashion,
Jews no longer kneel during prayer. Christianity has behaved in the same
fashion; the best example is the rules for calculating the start of Easter,
which were designed to prevent coincidence with Passover. (They're not
perfect, incidentally.) One absolute precept of Judaism -- accepted by
all branches of the religion -- is that Jesus of Nazareth was *not* the Messiah
of Jewish tradition. One cannot believe that he was/is and still be a Jew --
it's that simple. A matter of definition, perhaps -- and I deny the right of
non-Jews to define who is theologically a Jew.
What is my opinion of former Jews who are now Christians of some sort? Well,
that depends on why they converted. If they did it for social reasons --
being Jewish is *different*, hence bad -- I have nothing but contempt for
them. If they find a spirituality in Christianity that they never looked
for in Judaism, I feel sad. And if they honestly think that Christianity
is the Truth and the Way -- well, they've chosen a different path, and I'm
not competent to judge them. To some extent, the so-called Jewish Christians
are just a Christian sect; they differ from others in both their ethnic
heritage and in their theological attitude towards the laws of Judaism.
But from my vantage point, their differences in ritual and belief are minor
compared with, say, that between Catholics and modern "non-denominational
Bible Christians".
On the other hand, I do regard their names and their style of proselytizing
as self-deceptive at best, often intellectually dishonest, and possibly
fraudulent. There exists the widespread suspicion in the Jewish community
that such groups are being deliberately led and exploited as a vehicle to
convert Jews -- by people who know what they're doing. Is that true? I'm
not saying it is. But at some point there is an absolute line between
Judaism and Christianity, and acceptance of Jesus as the Christ is that
line.
--Steve Bellovin
P.S. Out of courtesy, I've refrained from posting this to net.religion.
christian; feel free to repost it if you'd like.
----
Thanks, Steve, for your reply.
--
Paul DuBois {allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!dubois
|
"And the streets shall be full of boys and girls playing --+--
in the streets thereof..." |
Zechariah 8:5 |gks@vax135.UUCP (Ken Swanson) (01/15/85)
Mr. Frank Silbermann, in regard to your reply to Julie Harazduk on the subject of Jews who have accepted Jesus as Messiah, thank you for your thoughtful and informative reply (as opposed to others.) Based on Frank's reply, I draw the following conclusion about Jewish belief: God is too aloof, remote, mysterious or holy that He would venture to dwell amongst us, in person, here on Earth. (Which is it?) Questions: What is current Jewish thought as to the nature of their Messiah? Does this thought vary across various lines of Judaism? When will He come? If the idea of God sweeping down to Earth, impregnating a virgin who gives birth to a divine child, smacks of Roman mythology, I am curious as to Jewish thought on the creation story in the "Book of Beginnings" (and other stories in the early part of the Torah) which have counterparts in Egyptian and Babylonian literature. No prosletyzing intended - I'm just interested in some answers from a Jewish perspective. Ken Swanson 4F-617 AT&T Bell Labs Holmdel, NJ 07733 ... ihnp4!vax135!gks
ellis@spar.UUCP (Michael Ellis) (01/16/85)
From Frank Silbermann: > >Do you, Julie Harazduk, accept the doctrine of the trinity of God? >If so, you are not a "Jew for Jesus", but a Christian. > I don't think the doctrine of the trinity is essential to being Christian; this idea was largely an elaboration on vague notions in the New Testament by early Christian philosphers with a bent for Greek philosophy. To the best of my knowledge, the primary belief that separates Christian from Jewish theology is the Resurrection -- metaphysically, Easter is a far more significant date than Christmas. -michael ellis
sher@rochester.UUCP (David Sher) (01/16/85)
To paraphrase from the article I am replying to: "Jewish thought is that God is too aloof or holy to dwell among men." (Sorry my latest news program neglected to include the article in my news buffer). To my thought this statement is similar to: The number 2 is too aloof, mysterious or holy to dwell among men. In other words, I believe that your statement involves an implicit anthropomorphism. I believe that according to the Jewish sages such as Maimonides the concept of time itself does not apply to God. This would render his dwelling among men somewhat problematical. As far as God causing a son to come to be, are we not all children of God? As far as comparing christianity to pagan religions that was probably unfair. But you were asking for it when you chose to prosletyze on net.religion.jewish . Anyway from the accepted Jewish definitions christianity is (more or less) idol worship. Is there a difference between a cross and a depiction of Zeus (aside from the fact that they are symbols of different religions)? If so what is the difference? -David Sher
gek@ihu1j.UUCP (glenn kapetansky) (01/17/85)
>No prosletyzing intended - I'm just interested in some answers from a >Jewish perspective. Because Ken Swanson appended this, I will enter the fray. >I draw the following conclusion about Jewish belief: > God is too aloof, remote, mysterious or holy that He would > venture to dwell amongst us, in person, here on Earth. What does it mean "to dwell among us"? God is everywhere, so He always dwells in me and around me here on Earth. "In person" -- what does that mean? God is not a person at all. Please make an effort not to interpret Judaism using Christian concepts (I remember being asked by a dear young lady, "I understand Jews don't believe in Jesus; but if that's so, how do you celebrate Christmas?"). God doesn't seem any more aloof or mysterious to me than my parents were to me as a 3-year-old...yet my parents were never remote, I KNEW they loved me and looked out after me (that's only an example; don't tell me "see! and your parents seem incomprehensible but they are people, just as Jesus.." uh uh. Rather, see that if my parents seemed incomprehensibly superior and mysterious, how much MORE mysterious must God seem, who is decidedly NOT a person. And if I know the measure of my parents care, how much more must be God's?). Ken, I'm just trying to point out that the "Jesus was God come to live among us" bit is a meaningless sound to Jews; it just doesn't mean anything. I tell you what. When the messiah comes, we'll both ask him whether this is the first or second time he's come around. I'll buy you a beer if you're right. Of course, since we're both eager to see who wins, let's both live our lives as best we may, to hasten his arrival. You be the best Christian you can, and I'll be the best Jew. I'll even make a side bet that if we're both living according to the rules of our respective religions, outsiders will think both of us are doing a great job of making the world a better and holier place. What more can you ask? -- glenn kapetansky "Think of it as evolution in action" ...ihnp4!ihu1j!gek
fsks@unc.UUCP (Frank Silbermann) (01/17/85)
In article <vax135.932> gks@vax135.UUCP (Ken Swanson) writes: >Mr. Frank Silbermann, in regard to your reply to Julie Harazduk on >the subject of Jews who have accepted Jesus as Messiah, thank you >for your thoughtful and informative reply (as opposed to others.) You're very welcome. >Based on Frank's reply, I draw the following conclusion about Jewish >belief: > God is too aloof, remote, mysterious or holy that He would > venture to dwell amongst us, in person, here on Earth. > (Which is it?) All of the above. The traditional Jewish approach is that God is to great for any of us to REALLY comprehend. We can, however, gain a few morsals of enlightenment through the study and practice of His law (the five books of Moses, interpreted and explained in the Talmud, etc.). >Questions: > What is current Jewish thought as to the nature of their > Messiah? Does this thought vary across various lines of > Judaism? When will He come? > Yes, these ideas vary widely amoung different Jewish denominations. I do not consider myself knowledgeable enough to speak for any of them. > If the idea of God sweeping down to Earth, impregnating a > virgin who gives birth to a divine child, smacks of Roman > mythology, I am curious as to Jewish thought on the creation > story in the "Book of Beginnings" (and other stories in > the early part of the Torah) which have counterparts in > Egyptian and Babylonian literature. > Perhaps this merely demonstrates that all faiths contain some truth. I have no problem with the similarity in creation stories, because I am not a "Bible fundamentalist", thought many Jews are, especially amoung the Orthodox. Actually, I personally am skeptical of the details of all of these stories. Though Judaeism teaches these stories to be true, I don't think Jews are not required to believe them. Actually, I'm not sure that Jews are "required" to believe anything. The only real requirement is obedience to the laws. Of course, if a Jew doesn't believe in God, then to whom would he atone (seek forgiveness) when he slips up? >No prosletyzing intended - I'm just interested in some answers from a >Jewish perspective. > I hope that other more knowledgeable readers can help you out further. Frank Silbermann University of North Carolina LORD, PLEASE BRING ME INTO THE COMPANY OF THOSE WHO SEEK THE TRUTH, AND DELIVER ME FROM THOSE WHO HAVE FOUND IT.
ericksen@unmvax.UUCP (01/18/85)
> To paraphrase from the article I am replying to: > "Jewish thought is that God is too aloof or holy to dwell among men." > > (Sorry my latest news program neglected to include the article in my news > buffer). To my thought this statement is similar to: > > The number 2 is too aloof, mysterious or holy to dwell among men. > > In other words, I believe that your statement involves an implicit > anthropomorphism. I believe that according to the Jewish sages such > as Maimonides the concept of time itself does not apply to God. This > would render his dwelling among men somewhat problematical. As far as > God causing a son to come to be, are we not all children of God? > > As far as comparing christianity to pagan religions that was probably > unfair. But you were asking for it when you chose to prosletyze on > net.religion.jewish . Anyway from the accepted Jewish definitions > christianity is (more or less) idol worship. Is there a difference > between a cross and a depiction of Zeus (aside from the fact that they > are symbols of different religions)? If so what is the difference? > > -David Sher *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE ***
wayne@cylixd.UUCP (Wayne Steinmetz) (01/18/85)
>...... Of course, since we're both eager to see who wins, let's both >live our lives as best we may, to hasten his arrival. You be the best >Christian you can, and I'll be the best Jew. I'll even make a side >bet that if we're both living according to the rules of our respective >religions, outsiders will think both of us are doing a great job of >making the world a better and holier place. What more can you ask? AMEN!!!! Now if the rest of the Jewish and Christian community could get ahold of that concept, we'd be able to wrap this thing up and go on home! Psalm 19:14 > to name just 2 Psalm 22:27 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Wayne Steinmetz ...!ihnp4!{akgua, akgub}!cylixd!wayne It's a good thing to give thanks unto the Lord ...