melanie@cornell.UUCP (01/14/85)
From: melanie (Melanie Nesheim)
<for the line-muncher>
I've heard the term "fulfilled Jews" applied to Jews
who believe that Jesus Christ is the promised messiah. In
other words, they are Jews who believe that the promise made to
Jews that a Messiah would come has been fulfilled. Non-Christian
Jews still look ahead to the coming of the promised messiah,
because they don't believe that Jesus was it.
I guess I don't understand why some people feel that a Jew
who believes that the promise God made to Jews has been fulfilled
is no longer a Jew.
--Melanie Nesheimgadfly@ihu1m.UUCP (Gadfly) (01/15/85)
-- >> I guess I don't understand why some people feel that a Jew >> who believes that the promise God made to Jews has been fulfilled >> is no longer a Jew. >> --Melanie Nesheim Because this Jesus person is demonstrably (to Jews, as well as many disinterested observers) *NOT* the messiah. "Jews for Jesus" makes as much sense as "Christians against Jesus". A religion is not much good if it allows you to believe and profess just anything. I (a Jew) have posted this to religion.christian because I thought a (certainly not "the") Jewish perspective might be helpful. Please do not take umbrage. -- *** *** JE MAINTIENDRAI ***** ***** ****** ****** 14 Jan 85 [25 Nivose An CXCIII] ken perlow ***** ***** (312)979-7188 ** ** ** ** ..ihnp4!iwsl8!ken *** ***
pellegri@ittral.UUCP (Dan Pellegrino) (01/17/85)
This is the way I see it. Please correct me if I'm wrong. A Christian, by definition of the term, is a follower of Christ. Jews are a *race* of people chosen by God. Scriptures clearly state that only certain genealogies of Jews could become priests (Levites, I believe) others kings, etc. Scripture states that the Messiah must come from the lineage of David. Heredity, lineage, etc. is of tremendous importance in scripture. The covenant was with Abraham and his *descendants*. These things indicate that people are born as Jews and, furthermore, each is from a specific division or tribe of Jews. (This doesn't mean Orthodox vs. Reformed, etc. but, rather, Tribe of Benjamin, Tribe of Judah, etc.) Although a person could convert to Judaism, a person that is born a Jew is a Jew. I have known a number of people that profess to be Jews but have no religious side to their lives at all. Some do not even acknowledge the existence of God, much less keep his commandments. Yet they tell me they are Jews. This, plus many scriptures, lead me to believe that those born as Jews are simply members of a race or genealogy of people chosen and separated by God from the rest of the human population. Hereditarily, all are either Jews or non-Jews (gentiles). (Note: This is not intended to be an oversimplification of an important part of God's plan, nor is it intended to refute the fact that many Jews are very serious about their spiritual lives.) A Christian, however, had to become a Christian. I don't believe that one can be born a Christian because to truly be a Christian one must be a follower of Christ and, therefore, one must be old enough to have an understanding of what following Christ entails. True Christianity is something that each individual must attain. An individual can be born into the tribe of Benjamin, for example, - born a member of a race that God set aside long ago - born a Jew, and they will always have their genealogy, their "Jewish blood". They are born and forever a Jew. Now, if one of this chosen race - a Jew - believes that Jesus is the promised Messiah of God and is a follower of Jesus as the Christ, then that person is *also* a Christian. That person is a Christian Jew. Dan Pellegrino (born of Italian descent and a gentile whether I like it or not.)ittvax!ittral!sysdev!pellegri
fsks@unc.UUCP (Frank Silbermann) (01/19/85)
In article <ittral.500> pellegri@ittral.UUCP (Dan Pellegrino) writes: > >This is the way I see it. Please correct me if I'm wrong. > >A Christian, by definition of the term, is a follower of Christ. Jews are a >*race* of people chosen by God. > >Heredity, lineage, etc. is of tremendous importance in scripture. The covenant >was with Abraham and his *descendants*. These things indicate that people are >born as Jews and, furthermore, each is from a specific division or tribe of >Jews. (This doesn't mean Orthodox vs. Reformed, etc. but, rather, Tribe of >Benjamin, Tribe of Judah, etc.) > >Although a person could convert to Judaism, a person that is born a Jew is a >Jew. I have known a number of people that profess to be Jews but have no >religious side to their lives at all. Some do not even acknowledge the >existence of God, much less keep his commandments. Yet they tell me they are >Jews. This, plus many scriptures, lead me to believe that those born as Jews >are simply members of a race or genealogy of people chosen and separated by God >from the rest of the human population. Hereditarily, all are either Jews or >non-Jews (gentiles). (Note: This is not intended to be an oversimplification >of an important part of God's plan, nor is it intended to refute the fact that >many Jews are very serious about their spiritual lives.) > >A Christian, however, had to become a Christian. I don't believe that one can >be born a Christian because to truly be a Christian one must be a follower of >Christ and, therefore, one must be old enough to have an understanding of what >following Christ entails. True Christianity is something that each individual >must attain. > >An individual can be born into the tribe of Benjamin, for example, - born a >member of a race that God set aside long ago - born a Jew, and they will alway >have their genealogy, their "Jewish blood". They are born and forever a Jew. > >Now, if one of this chosen race - a Jew - believes that Jesus is the promised >Messiah of God and is a follower of Jesus as the Christ, then that person is >*also* a Christian. That person is a Christian Jew. > > >Dan Pellegrino (born of Italian descent and a gentile whether I like it or not. Dan, your posting is basically correct, though misleading in parts. I will try to clarify the Jewish postion: The terms "race" and "geneology" have quite different meanings. Geneology refers to a person's ancestry, whereas in this country, race has connotations of physical characteristics. Originally, the Jews were racially identical to the other peoples in the middle eastern region. Throughout the centuries, Jews have accepted converts in every land in which they resided. Today, there is no single Jewish race. For example, most people would consider the Jews of Ethiopia to be mostly negro. Jews are, however, a geneology, a people. One can be born a Jew (as one can be a native U.S. citizen), or one can be a convert (as one can become a naturalized American). The descendants of converts are Jews by birth (as the children of immigrants are considered to be native Americans). The significance of being "chosen" is that Jews have the added responsibility to obey the laws revealed to Moses, due to the covenant (contract or promise) between God and Abraham. Jews believe that it is easier for a gentile to please God, because less is expected of them. Thus, there is a Jewish proverb that says something like, "In the day of judgement, the rightous gentiles shall share in the highest honors." This is why Jews feel no need to proselytyze. Their mission is to lead the gentiles into rightousness by providing a good example. Of course, a Jew who neglects his duty (or even worse, renounces it) is doubly punished (a Jew should know better). And a gentile who voluntarily takes up this burden and becomes a Jew is doubly blessed (Christians will disagree, of course). Frank Silbermann THERE IS NOTHING THE WORLD HATES MORE THAN A GOOD EXAMPLE -- Mark Twain
dan@scgvaxd.UUCP (Dan Boskovich) (01/21/85)
>Dan, your posting is basically correct, though misleading in parts. >I will try to clarify the Jewish postion: > >The terms "race" and "geneology" have quite different meanings. >Geneology refers to a person's ancestry, whereas in this country, >race has connotations of physical characteristics. Originally, the Jews >were racially identical to the other peoples in the middle eastern region. I am a new reader on the net. Just a few comments. The fact that "race" and "geneology" have different meanings do not affect the point. All people have a genealogy and a race. Some are mixed races (especially in USA). The fact that Jews were racially identical also does not affect the point. The biblical account states that we all descend from the sons of Noah. Genesis 10 gives the historical perspective. From the sons of Noah came the nations of Canaan, Ethiopia, Libya, Isreal, Egypt etc. So at one time all races were "racially" identical (sons of Noah) >Throughout the centuries, Jews have accepted converts in every land >in which they resided. Today, there is no single Jewish race. >For example, most people would consider the Jews of Ethiopia >to be mostly negro. This is like saying there is no single Italian or French race. There are many people in the U.S. who are a mixture of nationalities. Does this mean there is a separate race for each. For example, I am half Italian and half Yugoslavian. Does this make me a separate race from full blooded Italians or a descendant from the Italian race. >Jews are, however, a geneology, a people. One can be born a Jew >(as one can be a native U.S. citizen), or one can be a convert >(as one can become a naturalized American). The descendants of >converts are Jews by birth (as the children of immigrants are >considered to be native Americans). I guess the main problem is the meaning of the word "race". I would say, "One can be born a Jew, (as one can be born Italian)" However, one cannot become a Jew or an Italian. Because the Jewish people identify with a particular religous system, one can convert to those religious practices, just as many Gentiles did in the Old Testament. These "Gentile converts" did not become "Jews", they became known as God-fearing Gentiles. In the New Testament, The Apostle Paul says in First Corinthians (the exact passage escapes me) that the "body of Christ" is made up of Jew and Gentile. Hence, Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians. In case the Net readers are confused, I am Dan Boskovich responding to a response from Frank Silberman to Dan Pelligrino. I Dan Boskovich also happen to be half Italian. (whether I like it or not)
mckeeman@wanginst.UUCP (William McKeeman) (01/22/85)
> > The significance of being "chosen" is that Jews have the added > responsibility to obey the laws revealed to Moses, due to the > covenant (contract or promise) between God and Abraham. > Jews believe that it is easier for a gentile to please God, > because less is expected of them. Thus, there is a Jewish proverb > that says something like, "In the day of judgement, > the rightous gentiles shall share in the highest honors." > > This is why Jews feel no need to proselytyze. Their mission > is to lead the gentiles into rightousness by providing a good example. > Of course, a Jew who neglects his duty (or even worse, > renounces it) is doubly punished (a Jew should know better). > And a gentile who voluntarily takes up this burden and becomes a Jew > is doubly blessed (Christians will disagree, of course). > > Frank Silbermann > > THERE IS NOTHING THE WORLD HATES MORE THAN A GOOD EXAMPLE -- Mark Twain In my opinion Christians accept that they cannot please God by what they do here on earth. The law is just too hard for mortal man to obey. But, even in failure, Christians are assured of God's love and forgiveness. In awe and gratitude a Christian tries to do God's will as much as possible, not because it might earn a reward, but just because He asks us to. More, it is the spiritual love behind doing God's will, not the results, that a Christian seeks. God has inscribed the law on our hearts and it is our hearts we must follow. In terms of humanism (motivated by the "good of man on earth"), a Christian is often judged harshly, even martyred. For those who do not read their own heart perfectly, the bible, and churches, and books, and the clergy are a great help. But they are not the Christian law. The law is to love God and your neighbor as yourself. One's actions are simply derivative. /s/ Bill McKeeman ...decvax!wanginst!mckeeman
elb@hou5e.UUCP (Ellen Bart) (01/22/85)
You are essentially correct that a person is born a Jew (or converts) and then remains a Jew regardless of practices and beliefs. And it is also true that the person may then adopt Christian practices. The problem I think is partially a semantic one. Judaism does not distiguish *in the same way* that Christianity does between 1) a member of the religious party 2) a practicing member of the religious party. You said a Christian believes in Jesus. If a person doesn't believe, he's not a Christian. In Judaism, you are a Jew whether you believe or not. That *belonging* however carries with it certain obligations of belief and practice. A Jew who does not fulfill his religious obligations is still (as far as Judaism is concerned) a Jew -- just one who has temporarily strayed and will hopefully become a practicing member again. The Jewish community never considers that person anything but a Jew. And since belief in Jesus is inconsistent with Judaism, that person is not a Christian. The outside world, admittedly, may view things differently. Ellen Bart
jah@philabs.UUCP (Julie Harazduk) (01/24/85)
> -- > >> I guess I don't understand why some people feel that a Jew > >> who believes that the promise God made to Jews has been fulfilled > >> is no longer a Jew. > >> --Melanie Nesheim > ken perlow ***** ***** > Because this Jesus person is demonstrably (to Jews, as well as many > disinterested observers) *NOT* the messiah. Demonstrate please. > ken perlow ***** ***** >"Jews for Jesus" makes > as much sense as "Christians against Jesus". A religion is not > much good if it allows you to believe and profess just anything. How do you say "just anything"? Have you any knowledge of Jesus' teachings (his sources...his authority...his background...)? > ken perlow ***** ***** > I (a Jew) have posted this to religion.christian because I thought > a (certainly not "the") Jewish perspective might be helpful. Please > do not take umbrage. No problem with the statement. Please show the basis. Maybe give a few good sources. It makes for good discussion. Julie Harazduk philabs!jah "He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed." IS 53:5
fsks@unc.UUCP (Frank Silbermann) (01/30/85)
Indented twice are my own (Frank Silbermann's) original comments on Dan Pelligrino's posting. Indented once are Dan Boskovich's request for further information. Unindented is my lates response. ____________________________________________________________________ My original comments to Dan Pelligrino: >> The terms "race" and "geneology" have quite different meanings. >> Geneology refers to a person's ancestry, whereas in this >> country, race has connotations of physical characteristics. >> Originally, the Jews were racially identical to the other >> peoples in the middle eastern region. Dan Boskovich's response to my comments: > The fact that "race" and "geneology" have different meanings > do not affect the point. All people have a genealogy and a race. > Some are mixed races (especially in USA). The fact that Jews > were racially identical also does not affect the point. The > biblical account states that we all descend from the sons of Noah. > Genesis 10 gives the historical perspective. From the sons of Noah > came the nations of Canaan, Ethiopia, Libya, Isreal, Egypt etc. > So at one time all races were "racially" identical (sons of Noah) My point is that the Jews are not now, and never were, a racially distictive group. More of my original comments: >> Throughout the centuries, Jews have accepted converts >> in every land in which they resided. Today, there is >> no single Jewish race. For example, most people would >> consider the Jews of Ethiopia (recently in the news) >> to be mostly negro. Dan Boskovich's response to my comments: > This is like saying there is no single Italian or French race. > There are many people in the U.S. who are a mixture of > nationalities. Does this mean there is a separate race for each > For example, I am half Italian and half Yugoslavian. Does this > make me a separate race from full blooded Italians or a descendant > from the Italian race? There is no such thing as an Italian race, and no Yugoslavian race, either. In Europe, these are NATIONALITIES. In America, they are ETHNIC GROUPS. It has little to do with race. More of my original comments: >> Jews are, however, a geneology, a people. >> One can be born a Jew (as one can be a native >> U.S. citizen), or one can be a convert >> (as one can become a naturalized American). >> The descendants of converts are Jews by birth >> (as the children of immigrants are considered >> to be native Americans). Dan Boskovich's response to my original comments: > I guess the main problem is the meaning of the word "race". > I would say, "One can be born a Jew, (as one can be born Italian)." > However, one cannot become a Jew or an Italian. I could not become an Ethnic Italian in America (though Billy Joel, a born Jew, I believe, has made a strong effort :-) ). However, I could go to Italy, learn the Italian language and ways, and eventually attain Italian citizenship. My children would think of themselves as Italians. Likewise one can become a Jew. The original precedent for ethnic as well as religious conversion to Judaism is the story of Ruth, where she says to (I think) Jacob, "Where you go, I will go. Your people will be my people." Conversion to Judaism is something of a "born again" experience. The rabbis teach that it is bad manners to remind a convert that he was born a gentile. One is to speak of him as if all his ancestors were Jews (not that this is always carried out in practice, unfortunately). Jewish law and tradition makes no distinction between the children of converts and the children of born Jews. There are only a few distinctions made for the converts themselves (for instance, a convert may not marry a temple priest, though this is also the case for certain classes of born Jews). Dan Boskovich's response to my original comments: > Because the Jewish people identify with a particular religous > system, one can convert to those religious practices, > just as many Gentiles did in the Old Testament. These "Gentile > converts" did not become "Jews", they became known as God-fearing > Gentiles. In the New Testament, The Apostle Paul says in > First Corinthians (the exact passage escapes me) that the > "body of Christ" is made up of Jew and Gentile. > Hence, Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians. Inaccurate. Only some God-fearing gentiles converted to Judaism. The remainder followed the laws of Noah (less restrictive than the Judaic laws of Moses). Originally, some of the early Christians believed that Jesus's message was for Jews only. They required a gentile to convert to Judaism as a prerequisite for becoming a Christian. This posed some problems. Many gentiles were not willing to obey the dietary laws, the Sabbath laws, etc. Furthermore, all Jewish men must be circumcized. Oddly enough :-), many a potential male convert became squeamish when he learned that a piece of his penis would have to be cut off. In response, Paul declared that Jesus' message fulfilled (transcended) the law of the Jews. That is, that Jesus' message was for everybody, Jew and gentile alike. One did not have to be born Jewish, nor become a Jew, to join the Christian church. In time, the number of gentile Christians became so large that the Jewish Christians (whether born Jew or converted) became an insignificant and forgotten minority, assimilated among the gentile majority. The Christians did, however, believe in retaining at least a portion of Jewish law and tradition. The question of how much to retain became a hotly contested contraversy amoung the early Christians (a source of many "heresies"), and remains a point of contention between various Christian denominations to this day. Frank Silbermann University of North Carolina IT TAKES ONE TO KNOW ONE