sdyer@bbnccv.UUCP (Steve Dyer) (02/22/85)
> Catholicism has come right out and > claimed infallibility for their clerical leadership (though that's changing), > but Protestant sects do much the same. This kind of co-opting of Catholic teaching is about as meaningful (and no less annoying) than those who take, say, Einstein's theory of Relativity and start using it as a metaphor for society saying "everything is relative." These are statements based on ignorance mixed with a good deal of arrogance. Rosen, admit it. You know nothing about what Catholicism has claimed. If you had, you would know that: Only the Pope can make an "infallible" statment, and only when explicity speaking "ex cathedra" on issues of faith and morals, and only when the assent of the Church at large is given. There have been very few "ex cathedra" pronouncements since the doctrine emerged out of tradition in the 19th century; only two, I believe. Priests and bishops cannot make "infallible" pronouncements. Popes, as a rule, do not. None of the current controversial pronouncements, for example, the ban on artificial birth control, are "infallible." It is highly questionable whether the Church at large would consider a pronouncement "infallible" which was out of line with current Catholic belief. Indeed, it is the seriousness of such an "ex cathedra" pronouncement which reserves its use to well-accepted matters. (So what is the "Assumption of the BVM" doing there? I don't know!) Such a statement is not a club to be held over believers, rather it is a tool to strengthen individual faith. Naturally, because a teaching has not been claimed "infallible" does not mean that Catholics are not expected to follow it. -- /Steve Dyer {decvax,linus,ima,ihnp4}!bbncca!sdyer sdyer@bbnccv.ARPA
martillo@mit-athena.UUCP (Joaquim Martillo) (02/24/85)
Steve Dyer should not be surprised about Rosen's ignorance of Catholicism. Rosen knows nothing about Judaism and less about everything else. Yehoyaqim Martillo
rlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Professor Wagstaff) (02/25/85)
>>Catholicism has come right out and >>claimed infallibility for their clerical leadership (though that's changing), >>but Protestant sects do much the same. [ROSEN] > This kind of co-opting of Catholic teaching is about as meaningful (and no > less annoying) than those who take, say, Einstein's theory of Relativity and > start using it as a metaphor for society saying "everything is relative." > These are statements based on ignorance mixed with a good deal of arrogance. > Rosen, admit it. You know nothing about what Catholicism has claimed. > If you had, you would know that: > Only the Pope can make an "infallible" statment, and only when > explicity speaking "ex cathedra" on issues of faith and morals, > and only when the assent of the Church at large is given. > There have been very few "ex cathedra" pronouncements since the > doctrine emerged out of tradition in the 19th century; > only two, I believe. > Priests and bishops cannot make "infallible" pronouncements. [S. DYER] 1) It wasn't co-opting: you confirmed what I claimed yourself, above. 2) I was referring to the perceived infallibility of clerical leadership, not just proclaimed infallibility. As you stated, only the pope can make an infallible statement in the Catholic world, but the point was that the word of clerical leadership HAS BEEN taken as theological absolute correctness. As I also said "THOUGH THAT'S CHANGING". Please read what I write before seeing a few keywords and pouncing like a hungry animal. And as for my old friend Martillo: > Steve Dyer should not be surprised about Rosen's ignorance of > Catholicism. Rosen knows nothing about Judaism and less about > everything else. [Yehoyaqim Martillo] I forgot that only you are the qualified authority on such things. I would have deferred to you, but I didn't know you were around. If you have no reasoned criticism of my arguments to offer (as has always seemed to be the case when we crossed paths in n.r.j), why not just keep silent? The fact that you just don't like what I have to say doesn't necessarily make it wrong, except in your all-knowing eyes. [FLAME OFF - please take further didacticism to private mail] -- "Discipline is never an end in itself, only a means to an end." Rich Rosen pyuxd!rlr