jah@philabs.UUCP (Julie Harazduk) (01/16/85)
> > Look if you want to be gay, fine. But don't try to put God's stamp > > of approval on it. There are many other verses in the Bible clearly > > denouncing homosexuality. > > karen alias larryg > Richard A. Brower writes > There are a very few references that are used by some Christians in an > attempt to brand gay people as some sort of supersinners. Not supersinners; just sinners, possibly in need of deliverance. But then that's not very different from the rest of us. > Richard A. Brower > This has gone > so far as to lead some very radical rightwing Christians to deny human > rights to gay people, and even led some to say that gay people deserve > death or worse. This is definitely wrong and against the teachings of Christ and His apostles. Remember Mathew chapter seven ("Judge not that ye not be judged") and Mary Magdelin and her prosecutors ("Let him among you without sin cast the first stone") and chapter three of Paul's letter to Titus (too much to quote) to cite a few instances where persecution is definitely not Christian. Christ came to save the sinners, He did not come for the righteous (that's because there are "none righteous, no, not one"). If anything, Christians should be more understanding about sin, yet at the same time, pointing it out as separation from G-d, and pointing out G-d's ability to deliver us from sin and redeem us from it. > Actually, the artical seems to have been written to show > that at least some of these references probabally do not mean anything > of the sort. If you know of many other verses, send them out to the net, > so that others will have the oppurtunity to debunk them also. > > As a Christian, you are limited to using the New Testement (unless you > are one of those rare Christians who follows the whole of the Law). > Otherwise, come on down to your local MCC and then tell us that gays > cannot be Christians. The law defines "sin" for us, whether we keep the law or not. We are obliged to try and keep the whole law except where the New Testament explicitly releases us from it (dietary and the like and it's questionable whether this is true for only Gentile Christians). Of course, none can keep the law (it is a curse to man) in its entirety (which is where Grace comes in), but we are not to foresake the law as if it were not of G-d. The issue cannot be, then, whether or not homosexuality is sin, for it is defined by the law to be sin, but rather, the issue is whether or not homosexuality can be in G-d's Grace. By the New Testament Scripture, as commonly interpreted, it is clear that homosexuality is not in G-d's Grace (true of many other sins, especially willful sins Heb 10:26). The question is raised by the Hermeneutic article whether homosexuality is specifically addressed as one of the sins outside of G-d's Grace. It is a fair question to raise, but not possible for people to answer. We can never truly know the circle of G-d's Grace and how far it extends, that is for G-d to judge. Prayer for deliverance, acceptance of the fact that it is sin and listening to G-d's Divine voice is the best council I can give. A problem arises when it is not accepted as sin and is not addressed in the way that all sin must be addressed: through repentence (turning towards G-d for the answer) and prayer for deliverance. Of course, all this applies only to the Christian seeking to know G-d. For the non-Christian, it doesn't make sense to talk about it any more than any other sin in our lives. To G-d we all stand condemned until we accept the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross. Being homosexual is not an unforgivable sin any more than being a prostitute, a drug addict, a tax evader, a blasphemer, a liar, or any other common or uncommon sin. Once a person accepts Jesus, and the idea of repent- ance, deliverance may take time and temptation or backsliding can occur, but G-d will perform the work. By truly seeking to know G-d and the truth of G-d's will and His ways will become clearer. I know that, right now, that is what I'm concerning myself with. Instead of eliminating the sin in my life, I am trying to KNOW G-d (through prayer, Scripture and acts of faith) and let Him perform the work in me (known as the fruits of the Spirit). Don't forget, it's not by works of right- eousness that saves any man, but faith in G-d's redemption through Jesus Christ. Julie Harazduk philabs!jah Mat. 6:33 "But seek ye first the Kingdom of God, and His righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you."
greggt@ncoast.UUCP (Gregg Thompson) (01/30/85)
(King James) Romans 1:22-32 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their woman did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whispers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenant-breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgement of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. If you are gay you are worthy of death. Also remember that the wages of sin is death. Only through Jesus Christ can you be saved and cleansed from your sins. John 14:15 (Jesus speaking) If ye love me, keep my commandments. Romans 12:9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil, cleave to that which is good. Third John 11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hat not seen God. Leviticus 18:22-30 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination. Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion. Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you: An the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants. Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgements, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that so-journeth among you: (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled;) That the land spew not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spewed out the nations that were before you. For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people. Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the Lord your God.
larry@cci-bdc.UUCP (Larry DeLuca) (02/02/85)
Subject: Re: homosexuality and the Bible (orig. net.religion) Newsgroups: net.religion.christian References: <194@teklds.UUCP> <4870@fortune.UUCP> <215@philabs.UUCP> <571@ncoast.UUCP> > (King James) > Romans 1:22-32 > Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools > > And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to > corruptible man, and to birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things. > > Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own > hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves: > but anyone can dishonor anyone's body by putting lust first and treating the other person as an object (you CAN treat a one-night stand like a person...)... > Who changed the truth of God into a lie and worshiped and served the > creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. > > For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their woman > did change the natural use into that which is against nature: > god seems here to be concerned with people not giving him the attention he wants, not thier sexual practices, which he inflicted AS A PUNISHMENT!!! if you recall, in GENESIS CHILDBEARING was also inflicted AS A PUNISHMENT for having eaten of the tree of knowledge... > And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in > their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, > and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet. > > And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave > them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; > > Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, > maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whispers, > > Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil > things, disobedient to parents, > > Without understanding, covenant-breakers, without natural affection, > implacable, unmerciful: > > Who knowing the judgement of God, that they which commit such things are > worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do > them. > i did NOT see the word HOMOSEXUAL in any of god's complaints...if you choose to parse the bible randomly to fit your twisted little mind, that's fine, just remember that faggots like me read it too, and will point out your errors and your ignorance and your oppressive, petty bigotry (the same kind of bigotry that allows men like Hitler (didn't you just love him, Mary?) to rise to power.... god was complaining about a genuinely nasty group of people...reread the crimes... > If you are gay you are worthy of death. Also remember that the > wages of sin is death. Only through Jesus Christ can you be saved and > cleansed from your sins. > that is NOT in the bible (^^^^^ above ^^^^^)...it's self-righteous assholes like you that put their own words in god's mouth until they became law in the first place... what ever happened to "Judge not lest ye shall be judged." ??????? did it ever occur to you (in your infinitely narrow train of thought that runs on a circular track around a monument built out of bibles and hymns that attests to just how holy thou art) that maybe I too, have "a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, my savior." That maybe i, too, sit down and talk to god, and lean on him sometimes, except that i figure 99% of the time he's got bigger things on his mind than me, so why should i bother him with my petty bullshit... "the lord helps those who help themselves" > John 14:15 > (Jesus speaking) > If ye love me, keep my commandments. > What is the greatest commandment, teacher? there are two. the first is to love the lord your god with your whole body, mind, and soul...and the second is like the first: LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF. i don't think (with any more exceptions than most people) that i have really broken these two commandments at all. > Romans 12:9 > Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil, cleave to that > which is good. > i do...i took my baptismal vows...i did all the things a "good catholic" was supposed to do...if a friend comes to me and says that they caught (for example) a sexually transmitted disease and they are disturbed by it, i try to comfort them, not give them fire and brimstone... you don't know how many nights of endless sleep that passage has cost me... but i am me...if i was made by god, and whatever god makes is good, then i, too, am good...i choose to be good...i do NOT choose my sexual preference... (so it must come from god, and therefore is good)... > Third John 11 > Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that > doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hat not seen God. > since when is touching someone you love in ways that make them feel good (from sex to a simple hug or a backrub) so evil???? > Leviticus 18:22-30 > Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination. > the way most men of the time treated their women, it would be an abomination. > Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither > shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion. > > Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations > are defiled which I cast out before you: > > An the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, > and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants. > > Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgements, and shall not > commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any > stranger that so-journeth among you: > > (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were > before you, and the land is defiled;) > > That the land spew not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spewed out the > nations that were before you. > > For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that > commit them shall be cut off from among their people. > > Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these > abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not > yourselves therein: I am the Lord your God. but those words could just have easily been inserted in as any you have said...maybe i'm hell-bound, but i kind of doubt it...i try to be the best person i know how to... what would YOU do when you found out a friend had AIDS????? would you hold their hand, hug them when they cried, feed them when they were too weak to eat, hold them when they were delerious with fever and didn't know you were there? NO, DAMN YOU!!!! You would be spouting your GOD-DAMNED, SELF-RIGHTEOUS, POMPOUS BULLSHIT that was handed to you by your "god" about how it was all brought on him by HIMSELF!!!! i don't care WHAT you want to believe!!! you can come and have your meetings and talk about how evil all the queers are and how good all of you tight-assed filthy Christians are because you've accepted god -- but in the process you've forsaken what god wanted you to keep in mind as much as himself -- YOUR FELLOW MAN... so call me a CHRISTOPHOBE!!! you're a HOMOPHOBE!!! and you're damned, right, I AM A CHRISTOPHOBE!!! (I do have friends who are Christian, but they seem to have more open minds than most of the Christians i've talked to)...i'm scared to death that one day my sexual preference will be OUTLAWED!!! i'm already uneasy holding hands with my boyfriend in public, though it seems an unspoken rule between us that we're not going to hide our feelings for each other just because of what society thinks... if you had your way, i might get ARRESTED for that!!!! and why shouldn't i be able to kiss him if i like?? don't you touch or kiss or hold hands with YOUR Significant Other (wife, gf, whatever) in public?? just don't expect a warm welcome on my front porch when you come to tell me i'm doomed to hell, or three of you get together with a bunch of chains and beat up some of my friends coming out of a gay bar or you assault the youngest of us (gay men and lesbians) that are part of your own flesh as well, deny them their right to live and love as they choose and leave them with scars that perhaps will never be erased... if i was to come to your door bearing such glad tidings, i bet that you'd pretend that you weren't home, too.... larry... -- uucp: ..mit-eddie!cybvax0!cci-bdc!larry arpa: henrik@mit-mc.ARPA This mind intentionally left blank.
pmd@cbscc.UUCP (Paul Dubuc) (02/04/85)
It would be an understatement to accuse Gregg Thompson of brashness and insensitivity for posting biblical proscription of homosexual activity without comment. Well ... almost without comment: >If you are gay you are worthy of death. Also remember that the >wages of sin is death. Only through Jesus Christ can you be saved and >cleansed from your sins. Why go out of your way to lean on gays in this respect, Gregg? All sinners are worthy of death. Are you not a sinner anymore? Are you one of those who thinks that once they have passed through the door of salvation, they have bound God to admit them into heaven no matter what? This kind of finger pointing smacks of one who thinks he's got his salvation in his pocket. You might help gays a little more by entering into some dialogue with them instead of just dishing out condemnation. You seem pretty good at telling us what God thinks of homosexual practice. What do you think he thinks of some of the things you do? For cleansing we are in continual need. Have you had your "bath" today? A fellow sinner also worthy of death, -- Paul Dubuc cbscc!pmd
rlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Dinsdale Piranha) (02/05/85)
> (King James) > Romans 1:22-32 > Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools [GREGG THOMPSON] Why does one always find "Christians" quoting lines like these not realizing that they were "meant" to be applied to *them*? > If you are gay you are worthy of death. Also remember that the > wages of sin is death. Only through Jesus Christ can you be saved and > cleansed from your sins. Thank you. I'll let Paul Dubuc speak now on the balanced picture between religious and non-religious repression, and how I'm twisting his words when I claim that the repressive mindset has nothing directly to do with religious beliefs... -- "Pardon me for breathing which I never do anyway so I don't know why I bothered to mention it--Oh, God, I'm so depressed." Rich Rosen pyuxd!rlr
jon@ptsfa.UUCP (Jon Gallagher) (02/06/85)
> (King James) > Romans 1:22-32 . . . > Who changed the truth of God into a lie and worshiped and served the > creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. . . > > Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil > things, disobedient to parents, > > Without understanding, covenant-breakers, without natural affection, > implacable, unmerciful: > > Who knowing the judgement of God, that they which commit such things are > worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do > them. > > If you are gay you are worthy of death. Also remember that the > wages of sin is death. Only through Jesus Christ can you be saved and > cleansed from your sins. Ok, that's it. I am a person who beleives in a God unknowable in his divine Trinity. My background includes very conservative teaching and interpretation of the Bible. Nowhere in that education, at no time, even in discussions with the most devoted (fanatic?, sublime?) of believers was there ever a hint of something as dark and as evil as that last paragraph. Whoever you are, you have something wrong with you. You should talk a long time with religious people in your community. If it seems to you that they are mouthing words of the devil as they try to tell you that Jesus would accept a gay person just as he would any of us imperfect human beings, you should see a mental health professional. Am I the only Christian who thinks that there are a lot of human activities more open to question than homosexuality, when it comes to evaluating a person's goodness or suitability as a fellow member of the human race? How about "Judge not, lest ye be judged" (comes from the same turgid politically motivated, warped Bible as the comments above)? God's judgement is known only to God. Any hypothetical influence we may have will only affect our own personal salvation. Raving on at a group of people who will only suffer harm by the warped emotions you stir doesn't seem to me to be the witness of Chirstian life Paul calls on us to be. People who are gay are gay. They are not child-molesters, they are not even disturbers of the peace. They have managed to improve communities where they are allowed to live in peace as fellow human beings. Working in San Francisco I have had the pleasure of watching gay groups improve the lives of seniors at resting homes, nuture the last few days of dying people in hospices, work actively with political groups to change society (Ronald Reagan may not know this, but on primary day and election day, about 20% of the people manning the phones for him in San Francisco were gay, and every single one was a maniacal Republican.) A final point to all this. It is my personal belief that God rewards those who cherish his most valued creation, human beings. Christ enjoyed the company of tax collectors, women of ill repute, and the common working man, loving and cherishing each one. Somehow in my upbringing I was led to believe that Christ's life is meant to be our role model. Could 3 saintly nuns, 5 Jesuits, assorted lay, Franciscan, Dominican and Paulist teachers be wrong? -- Jon Gallagher Pacific Bell, San Francisco (415) 774-1326 {ihnp,ucbvax,cbosgd,decwrl,fortune,zehntel}!dual!ptsfa!pbauae!matt
friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) (02/06/85)
In article <136@cci-bdc.UUCP> larry@cci-bdc.UUCP (Larry DeLuca) writes: > >if you recall, in GENESIS CHILDBEARING was also inflicted AS A PUNISHMENT >for having eaten of the tree of knowledge... > NO NO NO. You misunderstand. It is the *pain* attendant on birth that is the punishment, *not* childbearing itself. Humans are the only animal in which the shedding of the placenta at birth actually *tears* the uterine lining. This is getting out of hand. The two sides are not doing much any more except shout at each other, and call each other names. Let us *try* to understand one another. -- Sarima (Stanley Friesen) {trwrb|allegra|cbosgd|hplabs|ihnp4|aero!uscvax!akgua}!sdcrdcf!psivax!friesen or quad1!psivax!friesen
rjb@akgua.UUCP (R.J. Brown [Bob]) (02/07/85)
Please make your impassioned defense or attack or whatever else
you want to say in the appropriate newsgroup such as net.flame.
The purpose of this group is to allow us discuss (?) primarily
subjects where the Christian World View (whatever that is) is
basically a given.
"I'm sorry, it squeaks when I walk...It has been that way since I
was a young tad."
Bob Brown {...ihnp4!akgua!rjb}dubois@uwmacc.UUCP (Paul DuBois) (02/07/85)
> [quotes from Romans, which I won't argue with, deleted - pd] > > If you are gay you are worthy of death. Also remember that the > wages of sin is death. Only through Jesus Christ can you be saved and > cleansed from your sins. Well, I don't think anyone's going to accuse me of being pro-homosexuality (do not read: anti-homosexual), but this is really something! "If you are gay you are worthy of death" ??? If you are A SINNER you are worthy of death!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You don't have to be a homosexual to deserve to die. All sin is spitting in God's face. All sin deserves death. No sin can be paid for by us. God's holiness is infinite. Transgression against Him by ANY sin is infinite transgression. And deserves hellfire forever. There, that ought to be absolute enough. -- Paul DuBois {allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!dubois | --+-- Vegetarian Geology: Is it a True Concept? | |
gregbo@houxm.UUCP (Greg Skinner) (03/06/85)
I was going to keep out of this discussion, but since a lot of people have
given their thoughts on it, here's mine.
The Bible is pretty specific on what is considered to be normal sexual
relations between a man and a woman.
"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his
wife, and they will become one flesh." (Genesis 2:24, NIV)
The Bible makes no specific references on normal sexual relations between
men/men or women/women. One can (note use of can, not should) extrapolate
from this that the Christian faith does not include a provision for homosexu-
ality, since the Bible makes no mention of it as normal sexual practice.
However, the Bible does make some strong statements about the practice of
homosexuality being an abnormal, and undesirable sexual relation between
men/men and women/women. This may be because at the time, the practice of
homosexuality may have been in accordance with certain other (cults, sects,
what have you) who sacrificed humans or performed other detestable acts to
God. It also may be because God just does not consider homosexuality to be
acceptable sexual behavior.
Whatever the reasons, the question remains: Is homosexuality an acceptable
practice for Christians? To that, I have no definite answer. I could sit
here all night quoting Scripture at you which would probably bear out that
it is not. If any homosexuals are seeking Christianity (I mean *really*
seeking, as opposed to casually considering it) I imagine that they are ques-
tioning their sexual relations also. This is no different than any other
person who is engaging in sexual relations (of the normal kind) outside of
marriage or any other thing that God considers a sin. There a a few questions
one can ask oneself regarding whatever sins they are thinking about.
Why do I do this?
Do I really want to do this?
Do I try to do the right thing, but always seem to fail?
In the Bible, Paul asked himself these same questions and many others besides.
I know that some homosexuals think that they cannot become Christians because
of their homosexuality. They feel they won't be accepted. This is not due
to Christians' unacceptance of homosexuality, it is due to *society's* unac-
ceptance of it (which may be rooted in the Bible, but is expressed in an
un-Christian manner, namely the hatred which we saw on the net a few weeks
back). It is possible, once becoming a Christian, the homosexual may discover
something about themself they didn't previously know, and that realization may
not make them homosexual anymore and they can learn to relate in an intimate
way to MOTOS. But this can be said of any Christian who has come to terms
with their sin and is finally willing to let God work through them.
The bottom line is that it's not the particular sin that's the problem, but
any sin in general is detestable to God, and what Jesus died on the cross for.
--
... hey, we've gotta get out of this place,
there's got to be something better than this ...
Greg Skinner (gregbo)
{allegra,cbosgd,ihnp4}!houxm!gregbo
gregbo%houxm.uucp@harvard.arpa