bj (06/17/82)
I would not blame the special names for animal flesh to people trying to obtain "distance" between the animals and the flesh. I think the reason is that there was no attempt for a "consistent naming scheme" [English was not "made", it "grew"]. Words came into existence because people felt a need to describe something without a name. The names beef and veal both apply to cows but mean different things. "Cow meat" is further broken down by the part of the cow it comes from. Pork comes from a pig, but so does bacon and neither pork or bacon is a pig. Venison now is used to mean deer meat but it originally meant "the meat of a game animal" and even included ducks. Chicken and duck are refered to directly because the they are usually served whole rather than cut up. B.J. (decvax!yale-comix!herbison)
cook (06/18/82)
There are several different cuts of meat from a cow. When I want to eat part of a cow, I must say I want steak, or roast, or ribs, etc. If I said I want to eat some cow, many people are going to give me funny looks. We need different words for different parts of the animal. Mike Cook BTL PY
rvpalliende (06/20/82)
"We" don'tg need to have a different name for an animal as meat or alive. Everybody lives happily in Spanish or French calling pig and pork by the same name. In Spanish (at least in Chile) there is something strange: the word "carne" (meat) is used to mean beef, although it *may* be used to mean other kinds ov meat. ~e why doesn't "~e" work for posting news? 1s/don'tg/don't/
pcmcgeer (06/20/82)
As an observation, I find that it is usually the case that the name of an animal and its meat are the same - as in lamb (surely you've heard the expression ewe lamb), any fish, any poultry, and some meats. In fact, the only animals for which this is not the case are pigs and cows, whose meat is served in so many different ways that it would surely be confusing to refer to each distinct cut as cow or pig. The point, of course, is that there probabaly isn't any psychological distance involved - the separate names just evolved for convenience. So pass the pig. ~v
cw (06/20/82)
A favorite Cuban dish of mine has a name that (I am told) translate colloquially to "fried cow".
borman (06/21/82)
I didn't see the original letter on this, but I've got a comment on the different names given to the animal and the meat. The English language has many pairs of words of this type: beef cow pork pig lamb sheep These three come to mind quickly. If you trace back in the English language, you will come to the time when the Normans invaded what is now England. The locals spoke Anglo-Saxon, and the Normans spoke Norman, related to French. The first column above is traced to Norman, and the second column to Anglo-Saxon. Since the Normans were the rulers, the 'common' speech of Anglo- Saxon was looked down on, and not used at the table, where as out in the stables, the locals used their terms. The two languages became intertwined, but many of the social distincions remained. Thus, we have many word pairs of this type in the English language. By the way, this isn't limited to just animals. Many of our 'dirty' or 'vulgar' words came from Anglo-Saxon. One example is feces/shit. The first is considered acceptable, where as the second is still considered vulgar. My mother's an English teacher, and that's who I first heard this from. I may have forgotten things, or mixed something up. If anyone is aware of errors I've made, please correct me. By the way, I find the etymologies of words interesting. Is there any one out there who has ever sat down and read a dictionary, looking at etymologies? I get strange looks when I mention that I occasionally read dictionaries... -Dave Borman St. Olaf College ihnss!ihps3!stolaf!borman
miker@sri-unix (06/21/82)
I missed some of the early discussion about psychological distance because we seem to have been disconnected from the net for a while, but nonetheless I will add my contribution. The reason I have always heard for the two different words for live and dead animals is that it dates from the period after the Norman Conquest when two different languages were spoken in England: French by the aristocracy and English (or Anglo-Saxon) by the peasants. Thus the peasants who raised the animals called them 'ox', 'sheep', 'calf', 'pig' whereas the aristocrats who ate them called them 'boeuf', 'mouton', 'veau' and 'porc'. I don't know why chickens have no alternate name except to venture that they might be typically more lower class food as they can be raised cheaply on a farm. An interesting example of psychological distance in this respect dates from my youth in Australia where I remember that shark was called 'flake' when sold as food. I noticed some in the supermarket here recently and it was labelled 'shark', but here there is not really the same danger from sharks that people are aware of in Australia.
djmdavies (06/23/82)
Actually in the UK farming business, chickens are known sometimes as pullets, which sounds like a derivative of the French (Norman) Julian Davies
laura (06/24/82)
I always thought that when you ate lamb you were getting *lamb*, and that when you ate *mutton* you got sheep. Am I wrong? laura creighton decvax!utzoo!laura
dvk (06/25/82)
References: nsc.180 About chicken: a comment was made that probably chicken was a "low class" food. Currently in the US that may be the case, but up until recently, chicken was the food of the aristocrat. Only with the advent of modern farming techniques have chickens been raised exclusively as food. Until the (approx) 1930's-40's they were mostly bred for eggs. As an aside, speaking of psychology and snob appeal, the more expensive varieties of "chicken" (i.e. squab [pigeon], rock cornish game hen [pigeon]) are more expensive, and don't taste as good. Another aside: consider the psychological turning-aside-of-reality of these nice names: sweetbreads [brains] lights [lungs] tripe [stomach] mountain oysters [testicles, of all things!] -Dan Klein
lloyd (06/29/82)
The real psychological distance in flesh eating comes from hiring someone else as your killer. Rick Lloyd decvax!genradbolton!lloyd
burt (07/02/82)
Re: Julian Davies note on "pullets" It was my understanding that "pullet" was a common term for a young chicken. Burton Patkau
wichman@sri-unix (07/21/82)
Etymology, not entymology. Entomology is the study of insects. -Glenn