bnapl@burdvax.UUCP (03/16/85)
In article <fortune.5099> brower@fortune.UUCP (Richard brower) writes: > >Well, I know gay ministers. Most of the ones that I know were ordained >in denominations which were, at that time, not supportive of gay people >at all (some have changed their views and some have not) and those ordained >were deep in the closet. Some of them married and had children. Most >of them have since severed their ties to their original denominations, >due to the anti-gay sentiments of their church's hierarchy and their >own needs to be free. Many of them are still excellent ministers to >their flocks. Many have joined with MCC, Dignity, or other groups >catering to gay Christians. Rev. Troy Perry and Rev. James Sandmier >are two examples of Christian ministers (fully out, which is why I use >their names) who have dedicated their ministries through MCC. Troy was >a Baptist and James was a Mormon. >-- >Richard A. Brower Fortune Systems >{ihnp4,ucbvax!amd,hpda,sri-unix,harpo}!fortune!brower It would seem that these "ministers" are sinning in several ways. First, the sin of homosexual activity needs to be confessed and repented of. Second, there is the lying to one's family and friends over the sin. In this case, they need to go to these people and ask for their forgiveness. Sin breeds more sin and waiting only compounds the problem. A broader question remains, namely, how can these ministers serve their flocks while living an openly sinful lifestyle? How can they be an example to others while lusting after members of their own sex? If a heterosexual minister engaged in sexual activity with someone he was not married to that would be fornication. What do you call it for the homosexual? "Coming out of the closet"? Paul made it clear in several places in the NT that homosexual activity is a sin. In our 20th century, "I gotta be me" society, the role of the Christian as a model of the Lord Jesus Christ to a dying world has been lost. Our life should reflect His life. People should look at us and see Christ. A man living in adultery, drunkenness or homosexuality is not exhibiting the marks of a true Christian. Steps should be taken to discipline those who are living in open rebellion to the Word of God. But of course, if the "church" condones it, then how can it discipline. Of course these ministers felt "uncomfortable" in their old churches. After much prayer and exhortation, they would have been excommunicated if they remained in their sin (no matter what the sin). Of course they will seek our those of their own thinking and band together to form a new "church". That doesn't mean it's a Christian church. Just saying it's so doesn't make it so. We should be careful about basing truth on experience. Just because something seems right to me doesn't mean that it is right. The Bible is full of individuals who thought they knew better than God and committed some offense. In most cases the results were disastrous. -- Tom Albrecht Burroughs Corp. ...{presby|psuvax1|sdcrdcf}!burdvax!bnapl
larry@cci-bdc.UUCP (Larry DeLuca) (03/19/85)
> should look at us and see Christ. A man living in adultery, drunkenness or > homosexuality is not exhibiting the marks of a true Christian. Steps > should be taken to discipline those who are living in open rebellion to the > Word of God. But of course, if the "church" condones it, then how can it > discipline. Of course these ministers felt "uncomfortable" in their old > churches. After much prayer and exhortation, they would have been > excommunicated if they remained in their sin (no matter what the sin). Of > so marry me!!! i'll live a good married life. i'd love to raise children. i'd like to teach high school dance/drama someday. i'd work in community affairs. but you won't let me. > We should be careful about basing truth on experience. Just because > something seems right to me doesn't mean that it is right. The Bible is > full of individuals who thought they knew better than God and committed > some offense. In most cases the results were disastrous. > > -- > Tom Albrecht Burroughs Corp. > ...{presby|psuvax1|sdcrdcf}!burdvax!bnapl yes. maybe you should reread some of those passages and see if they apply to you (yes, the bible applies to "Christians", too (surprise)). -- uucp: ..mit-eddie!cybvax0!cci-bdc!larry arpa: henrik@mit-mc.ARPA This mind intentionally left blank.
brower@fortune.UUCP (Richard Brower) (03/21/85)
bnapl@burdvax.UUCP (Tom Albrecht)writes: >It would seem that these "ministers" are sinning in several ways. First, >the sin of homosexual activity needs to be confessed and repented of. >Second, there is the lying to one's family and friends over the sin. >In this case, they need to go to these people and ask for their >forgiveness. Sin breeds more sin and waiting only compounds the problem. Actually, I do not know if they practiced homosexuality during the period before coming out, or just suffered in a (to them) unnatural lifestyle. >A broader question remains, namely, how can these ministers serve their >flocks while living an openly sinful lifestyle? How can they be an example >to others while lusting after members of their own sex? If a heterosexual >minister engaged in sexual activity with someone he was not married to that >would be fornication. What do you call it for the homosexual? "Coming out >of the closet"? Paul made it clear in several places in the NT that >homosexual activity is a sin. >... >A man living in adultery, drunkenness or >homosexuality is not exhibiting the marks of a true Christian. >Of course these ministers felt "uncomfortable" in their old >churches. Of >course they will seek our those of their own thinking and band together to >form a new "church". That doesn't mean it's a Christian church. Just >saying it's so doesn't make it so. This is obviously the dispute. Troy says that God spoke to him, telling Troy that he needed to minister to his gay brothers and that is why he founded Metropolitan Community Church. For people who claim that God speaks to them, you folks sure aren't sympathetic to others who say that God spoke to them. I believe (note that I do not in any way speak for MCC) that the official policy of MCC goes along the lines that the Old Testament does not necessarily bind Christians (much the same as most Christians feel about eating pork) and Paul, not being God and having a legalistic background, inserted some of his own feelings into some of his letters to various early churches, it being assumed that Paul could make errors (he isn't God and therefore perfect). It is noticed that Jesus according to the stories of Jesus recorded in the Gospels makes no mention of homosexuality. He says a lot about loving your brothers and sisters and a lot about going out your way to treat your neighbors with dignity. He mentions being careful to pull the log out of your eye before trying to remove the speck in the eye of your brother. It seems to be a given that each brand of Christianity says that anybody who doesn't agree with them in every particular isn't a Christian. I am reminded of the story of the Pharisee... and it makes me sick! -- Richard A. Brower Fortune Systems {ihnp4,ucbvax!amd,hpda,sri-unix,harpo}!fortune!brower
hutch@shark.UUCP (Stephen Hutchison) (03/22/85)
[ Bug poison ] In article <1972@burdvax.UUCP> bnapl@burdvax.UUCP (Tom Albrecht) writes: >In article <fortune.5099> brower@fortune.UUCP (Richard brower) writes: >> >>Well, I know gay ministers. Most of the ones that I know were ordained >>in denominations which were, at that time, not supportive of gay people >>at all (some have changed their views and some have not) and those ordained >>were deep in the closet. Some of them married and had children. Most >>of them have since severed their ties to their original denominations, >>due to the anti-gay sentiments of their church's hierarchy and their >>own needs to be free. Many of them are still excellent ministers to >>their flocks. Many have joined with MCC, Dignity, or other groups >>catering to gay Christians. Rev. Troy Perry and Rev. James Sandmier >>are two examples of Christian ministers (fully out, which is why I use >>their names) who have dedicated their ministries through MCC. Troy was >>a Baptist and James was a Mormon. >>-- >>Richard A. Brower Fortune Systems >>{ihnp4,ucbvax!amd,hpda,sri-unix,harpo}!fortune!brower > >It would seem that these "ministers" are sinning in several ways. First, >the sin of homosexual activity needs to be confessed and repented of. >Second, there is the lying to one's family and friends over the sin. >In this case, they need to go to these people and ask for their >forgiveness. Sin breeds more sin and waiting only compounds the problem. Tom is missing a point here. Even given the proposition that homosexuality is a sin, which may or may not be true for Gentiles, there is no reason to assume that being a sinner invalidates one from being an active priest. If that were the case, Paul would have stopped being a minister and an evangelist, as he had a strong awareness of many of his own sins, and was often being shown even more of them. There is the same kind of tension here which we face in other parts of our lives. The sinner is saved by the grace of God. The sin may continue to be there. We do not reject the sinner. We MAY reject the sin. If these men do not have the conviction that they are sinning, and show the signs that God's Spirit is working through them, then we must assume that He will convict them of their sins, in His own good time. A reminder: Our sense of what is "sin" is severely broken. We are only able to recognise sin in ourselves. God may use us to point out the sins of others. If this is true, we are forbidden to be proud or puffed up because of it. We are instead commanded to be humbly thankful that we are given the honor of being His servants. In the not too distant past, our culture had developed a strong sense of sin. It was a sin to eat meat on Friday, it was a sin to work on the Sabbath in ANY fashion, it was a sin to speak any name which might be the Name of the Lord other than in prayer or exhortation. It was a sin to murder (but killing an escaped slave was no sin, whether that slave was a black, an indentured servant, or even an apprentice). It was a sin to speak rudely or skeptically to a member of the Church Fathers. And sex, in most of its forms, was so sinful that families with too many children were often suspect for the immorality of the husband and wife! Admittedly this is a subset of Christians, primarily those of Puritan or similar background. What we see as sinful may just be an arbitrary cultural taboo. Hutch