david@cvl.UUCP (David Harwood) (04/11/85)
Reply to a question
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>From: dubois@uwmacc.UUCP (Paul DuBois)
Newsgroups: net.religion.christian
Subject: A Question
Message-ID: <878@uwmacc.UUCP>
Date: 9 Apr 85 22:36:19 GMT
Now I'll ask a question. You know in Acts where Ananias lied to the
Holy Spirit and ended up laid out? Ok, now think about this. I never
noticed this before, though I've read this story many times. What
happened next? The young men came in and carried him out and buried him.
A few hours later his wife Sapphira comes in, not knowing what
happened, and Peter says, "sell it for so much?" She says "yep". He
says die. She dies. They come in and carry her out and bury her,
too.
Now, HOW COME SHE DIDN'T KNOW THAT HER HUSBAND WAS DEAD? Don't you
think it's a little strange that they would bury her husband without
even telling her? So she could pay her last respects or something?
What's going on here? ??????
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Elsewhere, Paul says that the assembly will turn out a
certain flagrant sinner from their midst (handing him over to Satan),
so that he might suffer and possibly come to repentance: this very
act of excommunication may effect this psychological alienation of the
one from God, so that he is cut off from God as well as fellowship.
My point is that "eternal life" and "life", also "death" and
"sleep", are usually ambiguous figures for spiritual or material
existence. From the religious point of view, the one who is "cut off"
from God is as good as dead already, even if he is said to live.
With this understanding, there is no contradiction; the two
have simply been excommunicated. They may be said to be buried, just
as it is said that Jesus raised some to life.
David Harwoodhutch@shark.UUCP (Stephen Hutchison) (04/16/85)
[ Genuflec, genuflect, genuflect! ] In article <278@cvl.UUCP> david@cvl.UUCP (David Harwood) writes: >Reply to a question >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>From: dubois@uwmacc.UUCP (Paul DuBois) >> >>Now I'll ask a question. You know in Acts where Ananias lied to the >>Holy Spirit and ended up laid out? Ok, now think about this. I never >>noticed this before, though I've read this story many times. What >>happened next? The young men came in and carried him out and buried him. >>A few hours later his wife Sapphira comes in, not knowing what >>happened, and Peter says, "sell it for so much?" She says "yep". He >>says die. She dies. They come in and carry her out and bury her, >>too. >> >>Now, HOW COME SHE DIDN'T KNOW THAT HER HUSBAND WAS DEAD? Don't you >>think it's a little strange that they would bury her husband without >>even telling her? So she could pay her last respects or something? >>What's going on here? ?????? > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Elsewhere, Paul says that the assembly will turn out a >certain flagrant sinner from their midst (handing him over to Satan), >so that he might suffer and possibly come to repentance: this very >act of excommunication may effect this psychological alienation of the >one from God, so that he is cut off from God as well as fellowship. > My point is that "eternal life" and "life", also "death" and >"sleep", are usually ambiguous figures for spiritual or material >existence. From the religious point of view, the one who is "cut off" >from God is as good as dead already, even if he is said to live. > With this understanding, there is no contradiction; the two >have simply been excommunicated. They may be said to be buried, just >as it is said that Jesus raised some to life. > > David Harwood I may have the indentation level a bit screwed up. David, while I find your interpretation to be interesting, I suggest that it is not a valid one. The language and context in Acts, as in the passages which describe Jesus raising Lazarus, do not support any kind of metaphoric equivalence. The claim is quite clearly that Jesus raised a man from the dead, and it is quite clear that Ananias and Saphira died physically. They were not excommunicated, they died when they (who were very early members of the church and probable participants in the Pentecost) tried to lie to the Lord about what they were doing. The similarity I noticed is to the Israelites gathered around Mt. Sinai, when those who were unclean were forbidden to so much as touch the mountain where the Lord was present or they would die; a similar occurence came when the Philistines stole the Ark of the Covenant, and anyone who touched it died. If the Presence of that same Lord who destroyed all unholiness around Him is said to be dwelling in these two, then by engaging in an unholy act they destroyed themselves. Recall that they did NOT die of withholding the money, merely of LYING about it. To make it a "symbolic" death (despite the way it is told) rather than a real physical death is to render all of the miraculous events suspect. Once you have done that there is nothing of value left in Christianity. (My commercial against theological liberalism.) Hutch