robert@denelvx.UUCP (Robert Sparks) (05/15/85)
Some recent quotes from the net: (referring to Reagans' twisting the words of Jesus) > Wouldn't the christians and others who admire Jesus Christ's life > of nonviolence say that this is a travesty of all that Jesus > stood for. > Isn't is clear that Jesus, as with all his life and words, is counseling > Peace rather than War? > Is war the worst thing that can happen? Can peace never be worse than war? > What about nuclear weapons? How can we justify having them? > ... I will allow, for the time being, that > in some extreme situations, morally questionable means (including warfare) > may be used to accomplish important morally "good" ends, provided there > are no morally "good" means by which those ends may be accomplished. > Personally, I believe that something near the "just war" > approach is probably the most correct. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jesus' life and actions do seem to be very clear in this regard. They seem to support the following conclusions: There is NO SUCH THING AS A "JUST WAR". There is NO SUCH THING AS (for instance) A "CHRISTIAN ARMY". Jesus' life as an example seems to say that we MUST REJECT ALL VIOLENCE ! Perhaps it is only when we reject all violence that we are forced, against all that society tries to teach us, to find CHRISTIAN SOLUTIONS ! If you fight fire with fire, you now have two fires. Both burn, both kill. If the CIA becomes indistinguishable from the KGB, if the free world becomes indistinguishable from the communists, then it doesn't matter who "wins". If two tynanosaurus' are fighting, it doesn't matter to the mammals who wins. Whichever one is the victor will eat them too. Only if there is a difference between the two will it matter who "wins". After the fall of Indonesia several years ago, Sukarno (if memory serves) said, that is was not the CIA, KGB, (british, japanese, etc) who toppled him, but HOLLYWOOD. What riled the people there, he explained, was not palace intrigue, but movies showing examples of a better life. Cars, washing machines, & shoes may not be christian examples, but it was nonviolent & EFFECTIVE. It is NOT enough to say violence is wrong. Christians must come up with SOLUTIONS ! CHRISTIAN SOLUTIONS ! EFFECTIVE CHRISTIAN SOLUTIONS ! Apathy is not an acceptable christian solution. Ignoring suffering is not an acceptable christian solution. Violence is not an acceptable christian solution. So what is an acceptable christian solution ? I am not sure. I do know that there are christian answers. Answers which are not as "soul satisfying" as a "final solution", but which can help. So I ask you, I challenge you. What are good christian solutions to central america, south africa, the middle east, ... ? The fate of the world, & our individual peace of mind hangs in the balance.
purtell@reed.UUCP (Lady Godiva) (05/19/85)
In article <29@denelvx.UUCP> robert@denelvx.UUCP (Robert Sparks) writes: >Jesus' life as an example seems to say that we MUST REJECT ALL VIOLENCE ! >Perhaps it is only when we reject all violence that we are forced, against >all that society tries to teach us, to find CHRISTIAN SOLUTIONS ! >It is NOT enough to say violence is wrong. Christians must come up with >SOLUTIONS ! CHRISTIAN SOLUTIONS ! EFFECTIVE CHRISTIAN SOLUTIONS ! >Apathy is not an acceptable christian solution. Ignoring suffering is not an >acceptable christian solution. Violence is not an acceptable christian >solution. So what is an acceptable christian solution ? >I am not sure. I do know that there are christian answers. Answers which >are not as "soul satisfying" as a "final solution", but which can help. >So I ask you, I challenge you. What are good christian solutions to central >america, south africa, the middle east, ... ? The fate of the world, & >our individual peace of mind hangs in the balance. When reading this I was reminded of the movie "Witness", particularly the talk between the little boy (his name escapes me at the moment) and his grandfather about the gun and violence. I thought that was a wonderful scene and had a lot of good things to say. I agree that Jesus' life says that we should reject all violence. "What are the Christian answers?" That's a tough one. I think demonstrating is one of them though. Peaceful demonstrations. They do help, although sometimes we would believe otherwise. They help to change laws. The best example I can think of for an example of a peaceful Christian demonstrator is Martin Luther King Jr. He certainly had an effect, and I don't see why others couldn't have similar effects using similar methods. That's national. International problems are, of course, a much more complex problem. I think that as a nation, rather than sending military aid to countries, particularly countries with a high degree of poverty, we should be sending food and medical aid. We should be helping the people of the country rather than trying to decide what government should rule there. So many Christians are terrified that the communists will take over the U.S. I'm not certain if they are afraid of this because they don't want to lose their chance (and their children's chance) to become finacially secure in our capitalistic society, or if it's because they're afraid that the communist idealogy will become more prominant than the Christian one, and corrupt the future generations. What seems so ridiculous to me about each of these is that 1) Christians are supposed to not care about material possessions, so why is everyone so in favor of capitalism anyway, and 2) it seems that since so many people would obviously rather destroy the Russians with nuclear bombs than become ruled by them, I don't see how our idealogies could become more corrupted. Christ didn't nuke his captors, (and I don't believe that he had to go to the cross, I think it was his choice) so why should we? I do understand that many people fear the communists because they don't want to lose a democratic repubic and thus lose freedom of speech, etc. and I can sympathise with that. But I still don't believe that that justifies killing off an entire nation, and quite possibly the population of the world. Jesus said that the meek shall inherit the earth. I don't see getting involved in other people's wars, invading tiny islands, or having more nulear weapons than any other nation in the world as being particularly meek. Sorry that I rambled on so. Back to the original question, I think that at least some of the answers are to demonstrate (peacefully) and to help the poor of other countries, as well as our own, both as a nation and as individuals. (After all that's what the Peace Corps and Mother Theresa are all about.) Also prayer. I believe that prayer helps a great deal, and I know that I wish I did more of it than I do. I'm sure, or at least I hope, that these are not the only answers. They may not even be the best ones. But then, I'm not a preacher or a saint. I'm just a struggling Christian idealist in a small liberal arts college in the northwest trying desperately to make sense out of things... elizabeth g. purtell (Lady Godiva)
savage@ssc-vax.UUCP (Lowell Savage) (05/22/85)
> Jesus' life and actions do seem to be very clear in this regard. > They seem to support the following conclusions: > > There is NO SUCH THING AS A "JUST WAR". > > There is NO SUCH THING AS (for instance) A "CHRISTIAN ARMY". No, the kingdom of God does not need an army to support it with violence. But, perhaps the kingdoms of the world do need armies (including christians) to support and protect them. Millions of people prayed for deliverance from the Nazi holocaust--perhaps God used the allied armies to answer their prayers. Millions of people have prayed (to God and to other gods) for deliverance from the evil governments in Southeast Asia (after '75). Have their prayers been answered? (Estimates: 3 million dead in Cambodia after its fall in '75, .5 million dead in Vietnam after its fall in '75; compared to 1.5 million dead in Vietnam during the war. I don't know about Cambodia.) Also, millions of people have prayed for deliverance from their enemies (their government) in Russia, China, Afghanistan, Rumania, Czechoslavakia (spelling), Chili, Argentina.... Violence may not have been the solution for any or all of these. But I wonder. > Jesus' life as an example seems to say that we MUST REJECT ALL VIOLENCE ! Reject violence as a means of defending ourselves from violence, but does that extend to violence as a means of defending others? I can see it now: "Steven! Stop hitting me! Mommy!" "Steven, stop hitting Amy!" ... "Mommy, why didn't you make Steven stop?" "Because to do so I would have had to hurt him, I might have broken his arm...." "But mommy, he broke my arm, my leg, knocked out three teeth, and cracked my head." Sorry, I know it is an exaggeration, and it may never happen. But I hope that you can understand my objection to the absolute idea that violence is wrong. > Perhaps it is only when we reject all violence that we are forced, against > all that society tries to teach us, to find CHRISTIAN SOLUTIONS ! > > If you fight fire with fire, you now have two fires. Both burn, both kill. > If the CIA becomes indistinguishable from the KGB, if the free world becomes > indistinguishable from the communists, then it doesn't matter who "wins". > If two tynanosaurus' are fighting, it doesn't matter to the mammals who wins. > Whichever one is the victor will eat them too. Only if there is a difference > between the two will it matter who "wins". Your analogy of fighting fire with fire is rather self-defeating. There are several areas in the west where that is almost a standard technique!! The idea is that you start a small, hopefully control- lable fire in the path of the larger fire. After it has burned out a boundary that is too large for the large fire to 'jump', you put it out (with dirt or whatever). Then the large fire gets there, has nothing to burn, and goes out. When you don't have enough water or other means to effectively fight the large fire, and the weather conditions are cooperative (ie. no great winds to fan your small fire into a large fire, etc) this is sometimes the only way! Following the analogy that YOU have initiated, then, a worldly government (by moral, christian leaders), may justly decide that the resources available to them force them in the situation leave them no alter- native but to go to war. > After the fall of Indonesia several years ago, ... > ...may not be christian examples, but it was nonviolent & EFFECTIVE. I don't know much about the "fall" or Indonesia, so I won't comment on it except to acknowledge that nonviolent actions can be effective in certain situations. I just hope that you are not going to try to extend one situation (or even several, like post-WWII India, or 1960 USA, civil rights) to say that the methods used will solve every one. > It is NOT enough to say violence is wrong. Christians must come up with > SOLUTIONS ! CHRISTIAN SOLUTIONS ! EFFECTIVE CHRISTIAN SOLUTIONS ! HEAR HEAR! YES! PLEASE! I am with you 100%! But until such solutions are found, I must also act to support those solutions that I percieve as the best possible solutions for the situation I find myself in. This may put me in support of violent solutions. > Apathy is not an acceptable christian solution. Ignoring suffering is not an > acceptable christian solution. Violence is not an acceptable christian > solution. So what is an acceptable christian solution ? > I am not sure. I do know that there are christian answers. Answers which > are not as "soul satisfying" as a "final solution", but which can help. I don't agree that violence is not an acceptable christian solution. Christ was rather violent with some greedy rascals in the Jerusalem Temple! Also, some of the greatest examples of NT faith were exhibited by Roman soldiers! The centurian (US Army 1st Lieu., or perhaps Capt.?) whose message boy (or slave) was healed "long distance" ("I tell my servant 'Come!' and he comes. I tell him 'Go!' and he goes..."); and the centurian (I believe) who prayed to God, and so God sent a vision to Peter of unclean things...(was he perhaps even the first Gentile "convert"? Acts:5 or 7 I think.) > So I ask you, I challenge you. What are good christian solutions to central > america, south africa, the middle east, ... ? The fate of the world, & > our individual peace of mind hangs in the balance. Yes, we should all be challenged by this question. And yes, the direction of the world (not God's kingdom), hangs in the balance. But I am not certain that the solution will necessarily be non-violent. I hope that it can, but I fear that it cannot. Remember Christ's words "There will always be wars and rumors of wars...." Pray for peace.
bnapl@burdvax.UUCP (Tom Albrecht) (05/24/85)
> >Jesus' life as an example seems to say that we MUST REJECT ALL VIOLENCE ! >Perhaps it is only when we reject all violence that we are forced, against >all that society tries to teach us, to find CHRISTIAN SOLUTIONS ! > Check out John 2 and see Jesus' method for clearing the temple. -- Tom Albrecht Burroughs Corp. ...{presby|psuvax1|sdcrdcf}!burdvax!bnapl Communism is to government what astrology is to science.
rdz@ccice5.UUCP (Robert D. Zarcone) (05/30/85)
> > Check out John 2 and see Jesus' method for clearing the temple. > > Tom Albrecht Burroughs Corp. Come on, Tom. Everybody knows that God blows his top every once in a while. Look what he did to Sodom. Should we use that as an excuse to nuke SF? On second thought, let me withdraw that question. You and Arndt will probably say yes! (Haven't had a good fight with Tom since the old net.politics days) Wearing Nomex, Rob Z. *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE ***