melanie@cornell.UUCP (01/22/85)
From: melanie (Melanie Nesheim)
<line-muncher>
A friend who has been reading net.religion.christian but
can't post to it directly asked me (Melanie) to forward this to it:
Date: 22 January 85 14:16 EST
Subject: Article for net.religion.christian (Trinity)
To: MELANIE@CRNLCS.BITNET
This is intended to be neither answer nor argument, but simply
a tidbit to share with all. I was raised in the Catholic church,
and never understood the teaching of the Trinity... it was always
far too complex and above my understanding. But when I heard this,
it helped me to understand it better (no, unfortunately I didn't
receive this in the Catholic church).
How can God be one and three at the same time? And how can He be
one of the three without compromising part of the One? Bumfuzzled!!
Think of the sun as an illustration. The sun is one thing, yet it
gives off three things: light, heat, and radiation. The light
is something in itself, yet it can happen without compromising
its source. The same is true of the other two elements. And the
three things which emerge from the one have entirely different
effects on the things they touch. Yet the sun doesn't change
in order to accomplish all three things.
It can go on and on. I think it's also interesting to note that a
parallel of sorts is drawn in the last book of the Old Testament
between God and the sun: "And the Sun of Righteousness shall
arise with healing in His wings..." (I've heard it said that the
word translated "wings" can refer to something likened to rays of light.)
"The Lord is my Shepherd, I shall not want..."
Jennifer Moore
melanie@cornell.UUCP (01/25/85)
From: melanie (Melanie Nesheim)
It was neat to find Chuck Hedrick using the word "aspects"
to describe the Trinity. That's how I've thought of it for a long
time: that there are three aspects to God, but He is still one
being, not three beings. However, I wasn't sure how to explain it
so it would make sense to others. Chuck did an excellent job with that,
and with overviewing the positions of the various churches on the
Trinity. My experience is in agreement with his overview.
--Melanieedwardsb@harvard.ARPA (Bill Edwards) (01/28/85)
> From: melanie (Melanie Nesheim) > > It was neat to find Chuck Hedrick using the word "aspects" > to describe the Trinity. That's how I've thought of it for a long > time: that there are three aspects to God, but He is still one > being, not three beings. However, I wasn't sure how to explain it > so it would make sense to others. Chuck did an excellent job with that, > and with overviewing the positions of the various churches on the > Trinity. My experience is in agreement with his overview. > --Melanie My only problem with this terminology is that it has a tendency towards modalism. It looks like the Persons of the Trinity are more than just 'aspects'--they certainly are distinguishable entities (for lack of a better description) in the New Testament. The paradox is that God is one essence and three persons at the same time. If you don't keep this tension in perfect balance, you veer off either into tritheism--or into a denial of the personhood of Christ and the Holy Spirit. In the end, though, one has to admit that the Trinity is a mystery which we cannot comprehend, but which should move us to awe. Bill Edwards
susan@lmef.UUCP (susan) (07/29/85)
*Ahem*
Hello.
I am not very good with speeches or clever logic, but I thought
that maybe some of you (like me) have pondered the Trinity.
Since I am not good at saying things outside of poems, I
thought I would contribute my thoughts on the Trinity.
I do not understand eternity
(and neither do I comprehend
all that is forever beginning
and all that never ends.)
It boggles my limited mind,
yet I know that the One
whose name is eternal,
He is Father, Spirit, and Son.
How can Three be One,
and One be Three?
But, if faith, hope and love abide
in one heart, then it can be.
I am honestly and sincerely interested in opinions, thoughts
or comments that any of you may have about this.....
--
susan
{ihnp4,akgua}!sol1!lmef!susandkl@usl.UUCP (Dwayne K. Lanclos) (07/29/85)
In article <1731@reed.UUCP> purtell@reed.UUCP (Lady Godiva) writes: > I'm a Christian. I'm "born again" (a phrase that I dislike using > greatly) in that I believe in Jesus Christ and I believe in the power of > the Holy Spirit, although I must confess that I'm not a trinitarian (sp?) > and believe that the Holy Spirit is the same thing as God, in essence. > cheers - > > elizabeth g. purtell > > (Lady Godiva) Of course the Holy Spirit is the same thing as God! That's what the concept of the Trinity means: one God demonstrating three different aspects. Down through history, the experience of God has been that which gives life and meaning to our existence (the Father), as realized in human history (the Son), and as the spirit dwelling within each of us (the Holy Spirit). The Trinity is the formulation used to express this experience in language: three persons in one God. ----------- Come to the shell for answers. dwayne {akgua, ut-sally}!usl!dkl
purtell@reed.UUCP (Lady Godiva) (08/02/85)
In article <603@usl.UUCP> dkl@usl.UUCP (Dwayne K. Lanclos) writes: >Of course the Holy Spirit is the same thing as God! That's what the >concept of the Trinity means: one God demonstrating three different aspects. >Down through history, the experience of God has been that which gives life >and meaning to our existence (the Father), as realized in human history >(the Son), and as the spirit dwelling within each of us (the Holy Spirit). >The Trinity is the formulation used to express this experience in language: >three persons in one God. Ok. Although that is the orthodox definition of the Trinity, I've known many trinitarians who did not believe this. They believed in three separate, destinct entities. And if we're defining being a trinitarian as believing that there are three different aspects of God, I happen to believe that there are far more than three. But I don't really care what people believe about the godhead, it doesn't make any difference to your Christianity as far as I'm concerned. So I hope that this doesn't get into a discussion about trinity vs oneness vs ... cheers - elizabeth g. purtell (Lady Godiva)
homeier@aero.ARPA (Peter Homeier ) (08/06/85)
Susan, thank you for that lovely poetry on the Trinity. It inspired me
to attempt to discuss the Trinity. I must say that I do not feel like
this is something that I understand at all well. In fact, the more I
grow in Christ, it seems that the less I feel I do understand about the
mystery of the Triune God. But for what it's worth, here are some
thoughts on this three-fold nature of our Lord.
As Christians, we worship One God, not a pantheon as in some other religions.
We believe that there is One being who made us and loves us, and who rules the
universe. In Deuteronomy 6:4 it is written, "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our
God, the Lord is one!" (NKJV). There are not separate gods, who could have
separate desires or goals, or who could disagree among themselves.
Nevertheless Scripture reveals that there is a multiple nature to God, which
is usually described as God being three Persons, which are the Father, the
Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Although the nature of the Trinity is most clearly expressed in the New
Testament, there are an abundance of references to this in the Old Testament as
well, beginning in Genesis 1:26, at the very beginning: "Then God said, 'Let
Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;'". Also, after the fall,
in Genesis 3:22, "Then the Lord God said, 'Behold, the man has become like one
of Us, to know good and evil.'". (NKJV) In these scriptures God describes
himself as plural. This is not just a 'royal' we, such as a President might
use in order to appear more dignified, but a reference to His multiple nature.
We can see the three members of the Trinity revealed at the time of Jesus's
baptism by John in Matthew 3:16-17: "Then Jesus, when He had been baptized,
came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him,
and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.
And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, 'This is my beloved Son, in
whom I am well pleased.'".
Jesus taught about the Trinity during the Last Supper, when He promised the
gift of the Holy Spirit (John 15:26): "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall
send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father,
He will testify of Me."
Again, these are not three different gods, but one God. Jesus declared that He
was One with the Father: "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them,
that they may be one just as We are one." (John 17:22). The Holy Spirit was
also declared to be God in Acts 5:3-4: "But Peter said, 'Ananias, why has Satan
filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of
the land for yourself? ... You have not lied to men but to God.'".
In the book of Revelation we see the Throne Room of God the Almighty in
chapters 4 and 5. The Father is presented as the One who sits upon the
Throne, with the Lamb (Jesus) at his side, and with the Spirit burning in
seven lamps of fire before the Throne.
I would like now to turn to each member of the Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy
Spirit, and try to describe my meager understanding of the nature of each. I
welcome whatever help others can give me in adding to or correcting this.
The Father is the Creator of the universe. He is the One who sits upon the
Throne and administers all that is. He is the source and image of holiness,
and all our images of beauty and perfection flow from Him. He is unable to
look upon unrighteousness, but nevertheless loves in an unimaginable flow
towards all men, including those not saved. He is the Judge of all creatures,
the One before whom all will have to give account on the day of Judgement for
every deed that they have done, good and evil. He is also the One who forgives
us our sins, because of the blood of Jesus shed on the Cross. He sees that
sacrifice, and forgets our sins, for everyone who has come under that cleansing
flood. Mostly, He loves us with a love as wide as the skies. He sent the Son
to Earth to die for us, in His most wonderful act of love ever.
The Son is Jesus Christ, born of Mary and the Holy Spirit, both fully Man and
fully God. He existed with the Father before anything was created, and will be
with Him at the end of all things. "I am the beginning and the end, the Alpha
and the Omega." He lived in humility as a man, taught his disciples, was
rejected by the religious leadership of the Jews, and was crucified on a cross
for proclaiming Himself to be the Messiah, the Promised One, who was sent by
the Father to bring deliverance to His people. How little they understood of
Him! The deliverance Jesus brought was not just a release from Roman tyranny,
but a breaking of the power of sin over people and of the power of Satan over
the earth. The power of the accomplishment of Jesus on the Cross will defeat
any darkness it is brought near to. Jesus is also the One who will come again
to establish His kingdom here on earth, and to sweep away all evil forces in
the battle of Armageddon.
The Holy Spirit is also God, but is sometimes not so clearly understood as the
other Persons of the Trinity. He is the active force which accomplishes the
words of the Father. He is the power that worked the miracles that Jesus
worked, from walking on the water to knowing intimate details of people's lives
that Jesus came to. The Holy Spirit is referred to as the Comforter, the One
who comes alongside us in our sorrows and hardship of life. He is called the
Spirit of truth, which gives us witness in our hearts of the truth when we hear
it. "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name,
He will teach you all things, and bring to your rememberance all things that
I said to you." (John 14:26) It is the Spirit which convicts unbelievers
of their sin and of their need for Jesus. Without His aid no one would
ever soften their heart to accept Jesus as their Lord. The Holy Spirit
is referred to as 'He', and He is definitely personal, from my experience
with Him! The Holy Spirit is also an empowering force. When a Christian has
been baptised with the Holy Spirit, they have been empowered by the power of
the Holy Spirit to walk not like other men, but in the new life that Christ
calls us to. We are empowered to confess Jesus to others, to give witness
to the new life in us, to desire to know God, to surrender our lives to him
in general and in particular points of obedience. With the baptism also come
specific gifts of miraculous power, to heal the sick, to prophesy, and to
speak in other tongues. These gifts are not given for selfish pride, but to
build up and serve the other Christians in the Body. Finally, it is the Spirit
who makes all Christians everywhere one. Our unity is found in that we have
all received One Spirit into our heart, which binds us together in love.
Much more obviously can be said for each member of the Trinity. The most
prominent thing which is common to all is the complete love that He gives to
us. God is the most tender, compassionate, gentle and forgiving person we can
ever meet. In all of the ways He expresses Himself, that is the chief theme.
Love.
In Christ's name,
Peter Homeier
ARPANET: homeier@aerospacepurtell@reed.UUCP (Lady Godiva) (08/09/85)
I promised myself that I wasn't going to enter this discussion, but here goes... In article <326@aero.ARPA> homeier@aero.UUCP (Peter Homeier (MISD)) writes: >But for what it's worth, here are some >thoughts on this three-fold nature of our Lord. >Although the nature of the Trinity is most clearly expressed in the New >Testament, there are an abundance of references to this in the Old Testament as >well, beginning in Genesis 1:26, at the very beginning: "Then God said, 'Let >Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;'". I was taught that in this verse God is speaking to the earth. Let us (God and the earth) make man. Which is just what God did. He made man from the earth, and then breathed his spirit into him. This explanation always seemed to make more sense to me. >in Genesis 3:22, "Then the Lord God said, 'Behold, the man has become like one >of Us, to know good and evil.'". (NKJV) In these scriptures God describes >himself as plural. Again, how do you know he was refering to only himself? Remember, the angels, and Satan were created before man, and they all knew about good and evil. In short - I see no evidence for the trinity in the Old Testament. The New Testament, however, does certainly suggest that there are at least multiple facets of God, but it never uses the word trinity, or anything close. Who are we to say that there are only three, and to define them so well? I think that by trying to define God down to a level like that diminutises him. >I would like now to turn to each member of the Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy >Spirit, and try to describe my meager understanding of the nature of each. I >welcome whatever help others can give me in adding to or correcting this. [paragraph about the father, then one about Christ that ends like this:] >Jesus is also the One who will come again >to establish His kingdom here on earth, and to sweep away all evil forces in >the battle of Armageddon. The last sentence is incredibly debatable, but the only thing that I would like to discuss less than the trinity is prophesy. [Line about the Holy Spirit] Basically I think that everything that you have said is good, with only a few exceptions, which I have pointed out. My opinion is that sure, God has many different aspects to his nature, we all do. But to label them "father" "son" and "holy spirit" and to call them the trinity is what I have problems with. My advice is don't get too wrapped up in the doctrine of the trinity. Believing in it, or not believing in it, is not going to save or damn you. Although I do know people who would disagree violently with that. cheers - elizabeth g. purtell (Lady Godiva)
jah@philabs.UUCP (Julie Harazduk) (08/14/85)
>In article <326@aero.ARPA> homeier@aero.UUCP (Peter Homeier (MISD)) writes: >>Although the nature of the Trinity is most clearly expressed in the New >>Testament, there are an abundance of references to this in the Old Testament >>as well, beginning in Genesis 1:26, at the very beginning: "Then God said, >>'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;'". > I was taught that in this verse God is speaking to the earth. Let us >(God and the earth) make man. Which is just what God did. He made man >from the earth, and then breathed his spirit into him. This explanation >always seemed to make more sense to me. I can't picture God talking to the dust before he breathed life into it. The only acceptable explanation, outside of evidence for the Trinity, that I have heard is that He was talking to the host of angels in heaven. Rashi (a renowned Jewish Old Testament commentator) suggests this possibility. But I don't believe this is true, even though it makes sense to me. > In short - I see no evidence for the trinity in the Old Testament. How about Isaiah 7:14 or Isaiah 9:6 or Psalm 110 where the Son is called God but distinctly a separate person? Especially in Psalm 110, "The Lord said to my Lord...." I think this is evidence enough. And there is numerous mention of patriarchs and prophets being filled with the Spirit of God (in some translations it is capitalized and in others it is not). If we didn't have the New Testament, then I could see explanations really varying to extremes. But now that we've been enlightened, it's hard to overlook the distinct persons of God. >>Jesus is also the One who will come again >>to establish His kingdom here on earth, and to sweep away all evil forces in >>the battle of Armageddon. > The last sentence is incredibly debatable, but the only thing that I >would like to discuss less than the trinity is prophesy. A debate on this could be fun. I think it is important to believe that Jesus is coming again, but beyond that, I don't think that it should be a doctrinal concern. It doesn't alter one's salvation any, I believe. The fact that Jesus is coming back does appear to be very important to the New Testament writer's and, especially, to Jesus Himself. So I'm sure this is not debatable. > My advice is don't get too wrapped up in > the doctrine of the trinity. Believing in it, or not believing in it, is > not going to save or damn you. Although I do know people who would > disagree violently with that. Actually, I think it is advisable to search the Scriptures and seek God on this issue. I believe the three persons of God are very much as Peter has described and that he has based his article on the Scriptures. God Bless you and Enlighten you, Julie A. Harazduk