lrm@drutx.UUCP (MerlettoL) (08/28/85)
This newsgroup is called net.religion.christian, right? Then I have to ask: WHY DO ATHEISTS/"MALTHIESTS" INSIST ON POSTING TO THIS NEWSGROUP!?! If these people don't believe in GOD or any Superior Being, why can't they be content with their belief without imposing it on others (especially in a newsgroup created for those "others")? I read this newsgroup to hear discussion about the Bible, other religious beliefs, or Christian opinions in general. I do not read it to be convinced or unconvinced about whether GOD exists. Maybe a new newsgroup should be created - net.religion.unsure. This would be a better place to try and form peoples opinions. I don't mean to offend, but I really don't understand this kind of discussion in this newsgroup!
pez@pyuxn.UUCP (Paul Zimmerman) (09/03/85)
L. Merletto (drutx!lrm) wrote an article asking why atheists and maltheists post to this newsgroup. I cannot speak for atheists, but allow me to present the maltheist position. I certainly do believe in the existence of God. In fact, I believe in the existence of the Christian God, the God who wrote the words of the Bible. I believe that He is a liar and a fraud. I believe that He has deceived people into believing that He is good, when in actuality He is extremely evil. In this way, He gains the glory of billions of people whorshiping Him, while continuing to enjoy the pleasure of hurting and humiliating us. Christians build from the assumption that their God exists and is good. I look at the evidence and conclude just the opposite. Which of us is right? To me it's clear that Christians believe that God is good only because they want Him to be good, because they could not fathom Him being any other way. My conclusion came from examining the content of the Bible in detail, and from taking a good look at the world. It is a pity that you do not read the Usenet with an open mind, prefering instead to hear only the positions of Christians and other God whorshipers. God is certainly seeking to encourage this sort of thinking, since it inhibits our learning about what He really is, favoring the opinion He would like us to have of Him. The reason God encourages faith so much is because faith means that you won't stop to think about how evil God really is. I do hope that someday you get the chance to see God for what He is, realizing that He is a heinous evil pig monster out to abuse us all. Be well, -- Paul Zimmerman - AT&T Bell Laboratories pyuxn!pez
par@ihlpl.UUCP (Paul Rupsis) (09/05/85)
> > L. Merletto (drutx!lrm) wrote an article asking why atheists and > maltheists post to this newsgroup. I cannot speak for atheists, but allow > me to present the maltheist position. I certainly do believe in the > existence of God. In fact, I believe in the existence of the Christian > God, the God who wrote the words of the Bible. I believe that He is a > liar and a fraud. I believe that He has deceived people into believing > that He is good, when in actuality He is extremely evil. In this way, > He gains the glory of billions of people whorshiping Him, while continuing > to enjoy the pleasure of hurting and humiliating us. > > It is a pity that you do not read the Usenet with an open mind, > prefering instead to hear only the positions of Christians and other > God whorshipers. God is certainly seeking to encourage this sort of > thinking, since it inhibits our learning about what He really is, > favoring the opinion He would like us to have of Him. The reason God > encourages faith so much is because faith means that you won't stop > to think about how evil God really is. I do hope that someday you > get the chance to see God for what He is, realizing that He is a > heinous evil pig monster out to abuse us all. > > Be well, > -- > Paul Zimmerman - AT&T Bell Laboratories Hi Paul, I am intrigued with the vehemence you portray in delineating your blief in the evilness of God. I wish to extend an invitation to you to tell me your beliefs about Satan. The Bible talks about Satan, so I do trust that you believe he exists. How do you compare Satan to God? Is Satan evil? Is Satan good? Paul Rupsis
jon@ptsfb.UUCP (Jon Gallagher) (09/07/85)
In article <320@pyuxn.UUCP> pez@pyuxn.UUCP (Paul Zimmerman) writes: > >I certainly do believe in the >existence of God. In fact, I believe in the existence of the Christian >God, the God who wrote the words of the Bible. I believe that He is a >liar and a fraud. I believe that He has deceived people into believing >that He is good, when in actuality He is extremely evil. Uh oh ... >... Christians build >from the assumption that their God exists and is good. I look at the >evidence and conclude just the opposite. Which of us is right? Paul, For the sake of a lot of things I ferverently hope I am. Let's talk breifly minute about our two Gods. You have built an enormous macro-cosmic force that defeats people in their attempts at being, loving, living and procreating. There is an evil ominous force that is just waiting for you to step out of line (Lott's wife for example?? How about Sodom and Gomorah, the Pharoah's troops, the Canaanites before the incursion of Israel?). I've been accused of being Sister Mary Sunshine, but I just don't see it that way. Where's the voice that soothes you with a "This too shall pass?". Where's the God who teaches us and serves as the example of, "civilized behavior" (assigning part of societal plenty for care of the poor, the disadvantaged, the less priviledged). Something's missing Paul. How do you account for the good in us? Is it a triumph over a misguided malanthropic omnipotent creature? If you posit such a creature then it is ex post facto responsible for our existence. What then was the impulse for our creation by such a creature? Assurance of a continual supply of victims?? I find it hard to believe since (using your example of working through pure experience and human record) when has EVIL (which such a creature must be) maintained such a prolonged burst of effort, energy and creativity? >To me >it's clear that Christians believe that God is good only because they >want Him to be good, because they could not fathom Him being any other >way. My conclusion came from examining the content of the Bible in >detail, and from taking a good look at the world. Paul, an awful lot of the world's problems stem not from God, or even an adherence to his principles. Quite the contrary, if you strictly followed the word of God that Christians are *supposed* to follow this world would be hard put to have bad things occur. Remember that Christians are bound to follow the word of God as spread by Jesus Christ. Concepts such as "just war","holy war", hatred against jews, intolerance towards other religions, etc. do not exist as actual precepts in the New Testament that Christians *must* believe in. The commonality of these concepts is that they were created through Humans attempting to achieve a temporal goal. Paul, these are perversions of what Jesus said. > It is a pity that you do not read the Usenet with an open mind, God is certainly seeking to encourage this sort of >thinking, since it inhibits our learning about what He really is, >The reason God >encourages faith so much is because faith means that you won't stop >to think about how evil God really is. I do hope that someday you >get the chance to see God for what He is, realizing that He is a >heinous evil pig monster out to abuse us all. > >Be well, >-- >Paul Zimmerman - AT&T Bell Laboratories >pyuxn!pez The last conclusion is the hardest for me to take Paul. I can't believe that anything so evil as you describe would allow the goodness that the word of God has brought to the world. Nor would something so evil allow the joy that is experienced when you do something that is right! I am incredibly far from being the most faithful Christian in the world, in fact my arguments with Christianity may stem from the same source as you, namely how can someone supposedly *Christian* such as Falwell actually stand before us and say that the *GREAT LORD JEHOVAH* wants us to invest in South Africa. (Actually my problems are with the Catholic Church and its past and present history) Well the answer to me is, God wants us to find the right way. He never said it would be clear or self evident, just because He gave the world choices (free will and all that), and we are supposed to exercise the intelligence we were given to make the correct choices. This doesn't really sound evil to me. To me Evil is not having the opportunity to exercise my free will, not being able to choose my own way, and, in the end, not being judged on the way I performed my task (be it in work or life). You are right Paul in asserting that I can't view God in any other way than good. But the reason for that is that I associate qualities such as freedom of choice, independence of self and the existence of love with God also. Logically I have proven to myself that things msut be in this arrangement, otherwise many things I have observed and experienced cannot exist. I cannot choose to blame what troubles I experience or observe in my life to a malevolent being dangling me over the fire, because I am forced to conceed that I do have control over my actions. Therefore if I am the creation of an omnipotent being, that being must be good. This is not to say that each person is responsible for tornadoes that better them, the drunks that run into them or the vicissitudes that a life well-lived can produce. Consider, parents, what you attempt to do for your children. Does parenting mean anticipating every hazard in life, and then going about pading sharp corners, smoothing rough seas. I don't thinls so. I think it's more the goal of each parent to teach their children to cope with and maybe triumph over the problems life will create. Would a creating force of Good try to do any less? Paul, this is not meant to ridicule you, but hopefully gove you an insight, to one person's faith. I hope it helps. -- Jon Gallagher Pacific Bell 2600 Camino Ramon San Ramon, CA 94583 (415) 823-2451 {ihnp4|dual}!ptsfa!pbcast!matt