homeier@aero.ARPA (Peter Homeier) (08/30/85)
In article <88@decwrl.UUCP> levasseur@morgan.DEC (Ray EMD & S Admin 223-5027) writes: > I have never posted to tis group before but have been casually reading >it for the past few weeks. I would like to share what I believe God has >become to me. Ray then went on to describe his childhood apart from God, the crisis with his father dying, and the breakdown and recovery he experienced. He then shared with us from his heart things that he had come to out of all of his sufferring. I just felt that this was one of the most heartwarming and open-hearted letters I have read on this board. It reminded me that some of the most appealing things we can say are just what has happened to us, and how in our personal experience God has touched us. In this spirit, I would like to invite the Christians listening here to contribute their individual stories, of how they were saved, or rededicated their lives, or were filled with the Spirit. I would suggest describing the experience mostly, although of course it's fine to state the truths that became foundations in your life. For some people it was a very quiet thing, and for others it was a dramatic moment. But each one has a vitally important story to tell, because it was that way that the Lord Jesus chose to reveal Himself to you, and we can all profit by your sharing. To start things off, I'd like to describe the night that changed my life. I believe that I was a Christian from a very early age, although I cannot point to a specific moment of decision. But it was a very distant thing for me. I believed that there was a God and that He loved me, but I didn't understand exactly who Jesus was, or why He came, but I did love Him. I would call myself a "nominal" Christian at that time, having salvation but not much more, certainly not very interested in God and religion, but nevertheless having a certain hunger for righteousness and truth, which in me expressed itself as a delight in mathematics as a kind of "absolute" truth. I was very skeptical, even cynically suspicious, of those "fundamentalist, Bible-thumping folk trying to scare everyone with stories about Hellfire". I didn't go to church, although I did think that it was probably a good thing. But I was scared of people using the position of religiosity to impose their own man-made thoughts on me. I trusted God, but certainly not men. Actually, I still think that way a lot, having seen both trustworthy men and untrustworthy men, but the difference is that I have found out that you can't live without trusting people to some degree. I believed that the Bible was true, but I had never read beyond Genesis and Exodus very far (I always thought that you were supposed to start at the beginning! and so I never got to the New Testament). I went to CalTech as an undergraduate in 1974, and heard about a Christian fellowship of students there that some of my friends (and my roommate) belonged to. I was suspicious of their motives, and did not go. However, I couldn't help comparing the Christians I knew with the other non-Christians on campus. I saw the Christians at least trying to love people, however ineptly, whereas the non-Christians really didn't care at all. In September 1975, just after the beginning of my sophmore year, a couple of friends of mine came into my dorm room one evening as I was studying. One was my roommate, and the other another Christian I knew. We began to talk about God, and the conversation developed in all kinds of delightful ways as we talked about the Spirit of God, and how He was working in the lives of people today in miraculous ways. They told me about things that I had never heard of, about a baptism in the Spirit, and about miracles of healing, and speaking in other tongues which the speaker did not understand. I was amazed and super interested. After about two hours, the fellows asked me if I was interested in having them pray for me to receive this Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Having known these guys personally, I knew they weren't fooling me, and I just said, "Sure!" If there was something more to God than what I had experienced, I wanted it. They laid their hands on me and we all began to pray. As we prayed, I heard one of the guys begin to speak in another language, and a shiver went down my back. I knew that he didn't know that language, but he was speaking in it fluently. As we continued to pray, I began to feel something inside me, like a warmth in my chest. It grew and grew in intensity, and became more and more powerful, until it was like I was sitting under an invisible waterfall, where all of these hundreds and thousands of gallons of water were splashing down upon me. But instead of splashing around me, it was like it was washing right THROUGH me, inside my head, through my chest, down my legs and out! And instead of water, it was something indescribable, sort of like light, and joy, and peace, and laughter. The best word I can find to describe it is just pure glory. And this glory was washing down through me and through me and I was laughing and crying and I didn't know what on earth was happening to me. After a while the sensation lessened, and it gradually grew less, and faded away. But I was grinning for three days afterwards! If you think that that is an exaggeration, write me and I'll give you the arpanet address of my roommate, who was there that night. I was just walking around with this silly grin on my face. I had been touched by a God who I hadn't known could touch people today. After this I thought, "Boy, there is something REAL here, which I didn't know about before. This was no invention of a man, this happened to ME. And I know I didn't make it up." So I started trying to find out what had happened. It was sort of like I had been feeling my way blindly through a thick fog at night, when suddenly I had brushed up against something hard and solid, something solid you could cling to. I started going to that Christian fellowship on campus, started reading my Bible, started going to church, and learning to love God. It didn't happen overnight, there were plenty of times I said "No!" but God was patient and He always waited for me. I started discovering just what people had meant when they had talked about having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. I became aware of His presence, and learned to share all of my life with Him. And the result was that I gave my life to Jesus. I learned to acknowledge and confess my sins, and accept the free forgiveness. I learned how that forgiveness was purchased at Calvary. And I learned about the Holy Spirit and what that baptism that I had experienced meant. Now it's been almost ten years since that night of glory. I have gone through some incredible experiences and some horrible calamities since then, but Jesus has never left me, even in the darkest hour. I have learned and grown a lot in Him, but what it all comes down to, in the end, is just "Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so." That's what happened to me. What was it like for you? In Jesus's name, Peter Homeier ARPANET: homeier@aerospace -- Peter Homeier ______ Arpanet: homeier@aerospace / o \_/ UUCP: ..!ihnp4!trwrb!aero!homeier \__/___/ \
dave@cylixd.UUCP (Dave Kirby) (09/05/85)
In article <408@aero.ARPA> homeier@aero.UUCP (Peter Homeier) writes: >... I would like to >invite the Christians listening here to contribute their individual stories, >of how they were saved, or rededicated their lives, or were filled with the >Spirit. I would suggest describing the experience mostly ... ... each one has a vitally important story to tell, because it was >that way that the Lord Jesus chose to reveal Himself to you, and we can all >profit by your sharing... [etc] A wholehearted "AMEN" to that, brother! It's a real joy to see something on net.religion.christian that fits the description of the newsgroup ("Discussion about form and nature of Christianity"). I can't think of anything that better fits this description than personal testimonies from brothers and sisters whose lives have been touched by the Lord. You can't believe the joy I felt when I ran across this article after skipping through scores of articles filled with hatred, personal slurs, and arguments from atheists flaming maltheists flaming agnostics. I have gotten to where I skip through these articles, in hopes of finding one which has something to do with the form and nature of Christianity. Thank you for posting. I was getting tired of that 'n' key. My testimony? Well, it's nothing really spectacular (I mean, I'm not a former drug-runner or mass-murderer miraculously saved through a Damascus Road experience); but I'll go ahead and present it here. Maybe it will be an encouragement to others out there who don't have a mini-series-quality testimony. Being the son of a Southern Baptist minister of music (translation for non-Baptists: professional music director), I was brought up as a child in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. I had always been involved in church-related things, sometimes more than I wanted to be. At the age of 11, one Thursday night, I was lying awake thinking about God and all that I knew about Him. A very deep sadness came over me as I began to see that, although I was raised in the church, I had grieved the Lord many times from the sins I had done. As I thought more on this, I broke into tears and asked God's forgiveness; I was not motivated by fear of hell, but rather by the same sorrow one has when he has hurt his best friend. As I cried my eyes out over the sorrow I had caused my Maker, suddenly all the preaching I had heard about the Vicarious Atonement clicked in my 11-year-old head and made sense. My little mind suddenly understood the meaning behind this theological doctrine. When I realised what it really meant to me, I said Yes to the righteousness of Christ, and No to my own works, and called upon God to forgive my sins and give me a new life. For the first time I knew what all these terms meant. They were no longer Christian buzzwords. They were a description of what I was now going through. But the next day I felt no different. No stars, no lightning bolts, no great emotional feeling. I still found church boring. I began to wonder, the following Sunday, if anything had really happened other than just a good cry. I was unsure of whether God had truly saved me, if I had done everything I needed to. Maybe I had omitted something. But then I remembered that Jesus had promised Paradise to a thief who asked Him simply "Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom." If it was good enough for the thief on the cross, then it was good enough for me. I prayed the exact same words, "Lord Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." This time I knew I had done everything necessary. I remembered "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Still no lightning bolts, though. I still had recurring doubts, but I was always able to look back to that night when I had called upon the name of the Lord, and I had God's promise that I would was saved. In my college years, I began being bombarded by testimonies of people who converted to Christianity and "all of a sudden, felt a new joy and peace and ... (etc)". All of a sudden they were all gung-ho for God, and I felt left in the dark. I had not felt any magic like these people claimed to have felt. What was wrong? Have I really been fooled all this time? Or are these just a bunch of fanatics, or people who are claiming all this stuff because it is the "in" thing to do? (After all, this was the early 1970's, at the height of the Jesus Freak movement.) Maybe it was all a put-on. Or maybe I was the put-on. But I could see that something was driving these people to talk and act that way. And, whatever it was, it was making them awfully happy. They even seemed to enjoy going to church! Think about it! In February, 1974 I was attending a little Baptist church here in Memphis, although I was not a member. One Sunday that month something happened in the service that had never happened before and, to my knowledge, has never happened since. It was like a warm, loving Spirit gently came down and settled on the whole congregation. This happened during the sermon, and it got thicker and thicker. I was not the only one who noticed it. After the service I overheard several people talking about the unusual presence of God that day. Well, when that warm Spirit settled down and got to me, I suddenly realised that this was what I was missing. This was the "magic" I had seen in others. At the time it settled on the congregation I didn't understand what it was, but I knew it was something I wanted and needed. I began to wonder how you appropriate whatever this thing is. Apparently others had it. How do I get it? Well, I sat through the whole sermon like that, soaking it in, in case maybe I could take some of it home with me. Then we rose for the invitation hymn. "I Surrender All." How many times had I sung that as a child growing up in the Baptist church? That hymn and "Just As I Am" are staples in Baptist invitations. I started to sing through the song as always. But then we hit the second verse. "All to Jesus I surrender, make me, Saviour, wholly thine. LET ME FEEL THE HOLY SPIRIT, TRULY KNOW THAT THOU ART MINE." All of a sudden, in this otherwise mundane hymn, I had encountered the prayer of my heart. This Presence the church felt today was the Holy Spirit. I needed to feel, not just possess, the Holy Spirit, so I could truly know I belonged to the Lord. I prayed that verse right there, and then the chorus hit me. "I Surrender All." So I surrendered everything I had or was or was to be to God right there that day. And I asked Him for His Holy Spirit to be real to me. I walked out of the service that morning with a new spring in my step. But I was totally unprepared for what was to happen that afternoon. I was studying my Bible, as was my usual practice on Sunday afternoons, when all of a sudden it happened. It was like the floodgates of heaven burst open and overflowed my soul. The feeling is difficult to describe. The best way I can describe it is: think of the most thrilling experience of fun you had when you were a child, be it a roller coaster ride, a baseball game where your team won, or whatever. Multiply by 100. Then cram all that into about 15 or 30 seconds. I looked down at my Bible when it was all over, and suddenly I saw new meaning in the verses I had just been reading and puzzling over. I turned to another section. I read and understood it, too. It was no longer a mysterious book. The joy and peace that other Christians had talked about were no longer strange to me, either. It was like going from black and white into living color. The whole world seemed different. Gone were my doubts and my confusion. I was feeling the Holy Spirit, and I knew that I knew that I was Christ's! What a feeling! I think I should mention one more thing that happened to me, shortly thereafter. I was preparing a sermon I was going to give on my experience before my parent's church in Georgia. (After this experience, I actually felt a desire to preach! Think about that!) I was preparing notes on how a Christian has the Holy Spirit, but not the power, until he "hooks up" with that power. I compared it to a car with a disconnected battery inside it. The starter had the power available, but was not connected to it, so it couldn't make use of any of that power. Well, I decided it was also my duty to warn everyone not to go off on the deep end like some of these people in the Charismatic movement, which was splitting churches right and left, and causing people to go off on a tangent. Some were claiming that they could speak in tongues, which we all knew was a counterfeit of the devil. I began to pray over this, and as I was praying I felt my lips wanting to move. I suppressed the ridiculous urge; that would be like moving your lips while you're reading. I kept fighting it, but finally gave in and decided to be like an idiot and speak my prayer; perhaps the Lord wanted my to pray aloud to Him for a while. So I did speak out. It came out in another language. My first thought was, "Hey, this is neat!" But immediately a second thought arose, "But where did this come from?" Was this a trick of Satan to distract me from real prayer? I tentatively struck out the part against speaking in tongues, pending further investigation. I fought within myself over this for several months, whether it was a gift of God or a trick of Satan. I finally came across the verse where Jesus said that if you ask your father for a piece of bread, he wouldn't give you a stone; so also your Heavenly Father gives good gifts to those who ask Him. So I asked God to take away the gift if it was not from Him, and I trusted that He would not deceive me. He didn't take it away. Well, that's my testimony. Many other things have happened since then; I have grown some. But I'll cut it off here. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Kirby "There is no great genius without RCA Cylix Communications some touch of madness." - Seneca Memphis, TN ...!ihnp4!akgub!cylixd!dave (The views expressed herein do not necessarily reflect those of RCA Cylix. They may not even reflect my own.)
steiny@scc.UUCP (Don Steiny) (09/10/85)
> > In this spirit, I would like to > invite the Christians listening here to contribute their individual stories, > In Jesus's name, > Peter Homeier Jesus Christ*! Please keep witnessing in net.religion.christian. For God's sake*. *explitive -- scc!steiny Don Steiny @ Don Steiny Software 109 Torrey Pine Terrace Santa Cruz, Calif. 95060 (408) 425-0382 (also: hplabs!hpda!hpdsqb!steiny)
swc@cbscc.UUCP (Scott W. Collins) (09/11/85)
~ > From: on@hpda.UUCP (Owen Rowley) > Subject: Re: Some Personal thoughts on coming to know God > >Owen Rowley, replying to Peter Homeier< > First of all, you are dividing people up into two categories here, the > "christians" (it really sounds like you mean the "born again varietyof these) > and the "non-christians" (here it sounds like your saying if your not a > born-again then your not a christian). This last statement is true. No individual is truly a Christian unless they see that their current self is very defective insofar as it is (at least) clouded with doubt about life's truths and the purpose of life in general. This uncertainty leads to an inconsistent and even destructive life-style. An individual can then become anew (born-again, as you say) with a new life-center (John 3:7). People can be brought up in a Christian home, but will never automatically be a Christian; they must come to this point above. Therefore, all (biblical) Believers are "born-again". The kinds I think you mostly see are the newly-saved, adult variety (like me) who think they have something so new and neat that EVERYONE wants to hear about it. A weak comparison is a new <substitute-your-favorite-object> that you have just obtained. Of course everyone wants to hear about it and how it works and how it makes you feel. But get a new perspective on life, and forget it, eh? > You equate the evangelistic model > with loving and every one else with not caring, I find it hard to take that > it could be as simple as this. what you refer to as inept attempts at "loving" > people I see as patronising and meddlesome behavior that infringes on my right > to think for myself . All Believers see the incredible truth and consistency in biblical love (see 1 Corinthians 13, I think you will like it), but few ever wholly implement it in their lives (including me). It is a tough thing to be very patient and sacrificial - many Christians want their prayers to happen overnight sometimes, or at all, for that matter. > I have had it up to my crown chakra with smug xtians > who insist that if I don't live up to the code of their holy book then I will > be held accountable by their God. It is admirable to believe deeply in the > religious system of your choice , it is the height of ignorance to demand that > everyone else believe as you do. I see the christian experience as a gigantic > energy rip-off, guilt is heaped on the unsupecting believer by declaring > that certain actions are sins (you don't need to make a sin out of things that > people don't want to do) reinforcing a belief that human nature is inherently > evil, and then provide an exit from the inevitable punishment that is threatened > by letting you purchase your way out with your devotion or your cash or both. If this is the view that was presented to you, then, although it has some underlying truths, it was not witnessed to you very well. The main thrust of the Bible is that NONE of us can live up to the "code" of God (law), but can only attempt to. The only way to appropriate salvation is through His grace. This is clearly the intention of both the Old and New Testaments. The above kind of evangelism you mention is quite ineffective much less unbiblical. You can see this kind of tactic used in many areas. I can have a product that makes head hair grow like a hamster's (call it 'Gerbal-Life'), but if I brow-beat bald men into buying the stuff, it won't sell ("buy it or go around looking like a cue ball for the rest of your shiny life..."). Consider, at best we have a bunch of 'fanatics' that have truly found something totally worthwhile or that they are living a (possibly good-intentioned) lie. In either case, imperfect beings will express what they've found rather inefficiently: tainted with emotion, imperfect expression, etc. Please try to look at the message and not the messenger. If you agree that the first sentence is likely, then you owe it to yourself to at least look into the doctrine, if for no reason except to disprove us. Then you will either be pleasantly surprised (and miffed at us for misrepresenting the way-it-otta-be) or you will be gratified to be prepared for others down the road who will start "waving bibles" at you. > Now thats how I feel about it but I don't expect anybody else to accept my > words as anything other than my opinion. Ideally, neither should I. I would hope that others will seriously CONSIDER my opinion in case it bears truth. It is just THAT: my opinion, whether it is based upon universally correct thinking or not. I will fail to intrigue most of the time if I claim the market on truth (only Christ could claim this ...er, in my opinion). Instead, I should exhibit exemplary behavior and try to pique your curiosity so that you will investigate the stuff on your own accord, so that you may make your own, unforced decision one way or t'other. (I wish car salesmen would try this...) I doubt that you can claim that you've done this (and have given it justice) as you seem to think that you would be expected to live up to the "code". > > Please be aware that the experience you describe is not unique , its not even > unique to christianity. In fact any accomplished Magician or Hypnotist can > take you through the same set of experiences under a multitude of guises. > Many religious movements (often branded as cults) use the same methods > to gather converts and the de-programming process that is required to break > the conditioning that results has been a subject of controversy too lengthy > to go into now (though I would love to start a discussion of it at another time) Ah, but how many of these things bear the lasting 'fruit' that the Holy Spirit has for many lives (present and past)? Feelings and emotions are stimulated by a variety of sources and hence can be very similar and fleeting. Therefore, as the Bible warns, beware of false doctrines and wolves that come in sheep's clothing. A Christian's love and faith are proven by the fruit, the outward consistency, that reflects the claims of his/her beliefs. > I understand that what you really want is to get out the "Good Word" > to the heathen and thereby save them from damnation. The problem with this > is that your logic in doing so is a closed loop with no place for points > of view that are outside of your own trip. Your story was certainly well > told and the elements of spiritual discovery orchestrated by a veritable > symphony of testament designed to be inspiring to those who ardently seek > solace from doubt and the purgatory of disbelief. However you left no room > for the seekers who find their truth on the bank of a different river. You seem to feel that Christianity is a refuge for refugees, a crutch for the lame who cannot stand on their own. Although it CAN be obtained by the weak as well as the strong, it is not an opiate of the populace. A lot of Christians feel that the Good News is the Penicillin for a bunch of infected people (who don't know/admit that they are infected), rather than simply Novacaine for the pained. Note that the Penicillin can remedy the pain, too. But more importantly, it is a cure for the disease (or a way to live with it and not by it) as opposed to a numbing agent for the symptoms. I have internalized the 'cure' as I, too, was infected. I am rid of the doom of the infection, although I still have the thorn in my side. I will be rid of the thorn at the appointed time... Please also realize that although Peter would like for non-Christians to read his account and be piqued with interest, his main thrust was to do what he likes to do: glorify God by sharing his day of salvation with the Christian readers on the net (who sound very glad to change the tone of the news group much less revel in said accounts). > I hope this response is recieved as a positive statemnt rather than just > *flame* because I want to be clear that every one is entitled to their > opinion . That is the way I read it, Owen. I certainly appreciate your kinds of remarks over the variety of sarcastic and stubborn replies of other netters. May your mind and heart be challenged by God's word. Scott W. Collins