rjb@akgua.UUCP (R.J. Brown [Bob]) (09/10/85)
** Originally sent as mail 8/30/85** Mr. Martillo, In your massive refutation of the Trinity and All Things Christian you used a word that I could not find in the American English Dictionaries available to me. Would you define it for me ?? >>When Ashkenazim got into **pravoslavie** and imitating Christian ways, the >>Torah lost its immediacy to the Ashkenazim. Anybody else know the meaning ? Perhaps it is a non-English word,..No? Please and Thank You ( I'm only semi-barbaric :-) ) Bob Brown {...ihnp4!akgua!rjb}
martillo@csd2.UUCP (Joachim Martillo) (09/10/85)
I apologize to Bob Brown for not responding promptly to his letter. Pravoslavie is Russian and means more or less correct prayer. The Russian Orthodox on the whole produced relatively many fewer theological works than Roman Catholics. They felt that the Greek Orthodox had produced all there was to say and now only praying correctly was left. Simultaneously since Ivan III the Russian orthodox have had a great fear of intellectual production that was not religious. Consequently lay life in pre-petrine Russia had a rather eclesial quality. These developments in Russian Orthodoxy were all paralled by similar developments among Ashkenazim and given the frequency of Judaizing heresies in Russian religious history there is a strong possibility of cross borrowing. Now it is possible that the Ashkenazi developments were independent (Yemenite Jews for instance wrote almost no non-religious poetry but as strict Maimonideans were not opposed to scientific knowledge as many Ashkenazim have been) but I doubt it especially because strength of religious involvement among Ashkenazim in fact exactly parallels strength of religious involvement among the Russian Orthodox even after 2 or 3 generations of separation from Russia. The ba`al tesubah movement has a rather strong parallel of religious revival among the Russian Orthodox. In fact in Russia itself, return (teshubah) to Judaism for many Jews was in fact preceded by the adoption of Russian Orthodoxy by many Ashkenazim. Needless to say the Sefardi population of the Soviet Union never left Judaism and none have converted to Russian Orthodoxy.
sdyer@bbncc5.UUCP (Steve Dyer) (09/11/85)
> >>When Ashkenazim got into **pravoslavie** and imitating Christian ways, the > >>Torah lost its immediacy to the Ashkenazim. > > Anybody else know the meaning ? Perhaps it is a non-English word,..No? "Pravoslavie" means, literally, "orthodoxy", as in the various Eastern Orthodox Churches. Martillo was using the Russian word. -- /Steve Dyer {harvard,seismo}!bbnccv!bbncc5!sdyer sdyer@bbncc5.ARPA
martillo@csd2.UUCP (Joachim Martillo) (09/11/85)
pravoslavie may be closer in concept to orthopractic than orthodox.
berman@psuvax1.UUCP (Piotr Berman) (09/16/85)
> ** Originally sent as mail 8/30/85** > > Mr. Martillo, > > In your massive refutation of the Trinity and All Things Christian > you used a word that I could not find in the American English Dictionaries > available to me. Would you define it for me ?? > > > >>When Ashkenazim got into **pravoslavie** and imitating Christian ways, the > >>Torah lost its immediacy to the Ashkenazim. > > Anybody else know the meaning ? Perhaps it is a non-English word,..No? > > > Please and Thank You ( I'm only semi-barbaric :-) ) > > > Bob Brown {...ihnp4!akgua!rjb} You dumb ignorant :-)! Replace v by w and look to a Polish dictionary (v suggests that Martillo transliterated from Russian, but the Polish word is the same). Simple! pravoslavie = Eastern Orthodox. What it really means, beats me. Possibly, eating such foods like gefilte fish, borshcht, potatos etc. Especially sinful is gefilte fish, made of carp, a fish with so few scales, that a pius Sephardim would treat it at par with a scaleless eal (fish without scales is regarded as shell fish, ergo non kosher). My personal request to Martillo: could you send me by mail a list of sins of my Ashkenazim kins? Piotr Berman
berman@psuvax1.UUCP (Piotr Berman) (09/16/85)
> I apologize to Bob Brown for not responding promptly to his letter. > > Pravoslavie is Russian and means more or less correct prayer. The > Russian Orthodox on the whole produced relatively many fewer > theological works than Roman Catholics. They felt that the Greek > Orthodox had produced all there was to say and now only praying > correctly was left. Simultaneously since Ivan III the Russian > orthodox have had a great fear of intellectual production that was not > religious. Consequently lay life in pre-petrine Russia had a rather > eclesial quality. These developments in Russian Orthodoxy were all > paralled by similar developments among Ashkenazim and given the > frequency of Judaizing heresies in Russian religious history there is > a strong possibility of cross borrowing. > > Now it is possible that the Ashkenazi developments were independent > (Yemenite Jews for instance wrote almost no non-religious poetry but > as strict Maimonideans were not opposed to scientific knowledge as > many Ashkenazim have been) but I doubt it especially because strength > of religious involvement among Ashkenazim in fact exactly parallels > strength of religious involvement among the Russian Orthodox even > after 2 or 3 generations of separation from Russia. > > The ba`al tesubah movement has a rather strong parallel of religious > revival among the Russian Orthodox. In fact in Russia itself, return > (teshubah) to Judaism for many Jews was in fact preceded by the > adoption of Russian Orthodoxy by many Ashkenazim. > > Needless to say the Sefardi population of the Soviet Union never left > Judaism and none have converted to Russian Orthodoxy. Martillo gives several wrong impressions here. 1. Ashkenazim did not live in Russia before Peter the Great. In fact, vast majority of them lived in the "Commonwealth of Poland and Lithuania", and almost none in Russia. The suggestion that the policies of tsars were influencing Ashkenazim in the span of years 1550-1760 is absurd. 2. Sefardim happen to leave judaism. Sefardim include Jews of Portugal, Marans, which reconverted to Judaism. Since they were expelled from Portugal in spite of their official RC, it is not strange that they lost faith in RC. 3. Martillo despises not only Ashkenazim, but also all Muslim, Lutherans, etc., etc. He KNOWS that Yemenite Jews were more pius and had better intellectual life than Ashkenazim. Good luck Martillo, let no Muslim, Ashkenazi, Lutheran, Catholic, etc. ever crosses your way (not to mention black cats)! Piotr Berman