CJC@psuvm.BITNET (09/11/85)
Xref: psuvax1 net.origins:1816 net.religion:6121 net.religion.christian:956 In article <397@scgvaxd.UUCP> Dan Boskovitch writes >In article <2137CJC@psuvm> CJC@psuvm.BITNET writes: >>Before dismissing this idea, reread the biblical account of the plagues >>in Egypt; my copy states repeatedly: >> >> "But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not let them go." >> >> Why not? Read Exodus 10: v.1-2 >> >> "Then the Lord said to Moses "Go in to Pharaoh; for I have hardened >> his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may show these signs >> of mine among you, and that you may tell in the hearing of your son and >> of your son's son how I have made sport of the Egyptians "" > Can you imagine Moses' dismay if God would have told him to go to > Pharoah and demand the release of his people and Pharoah would have > told Moses to go fly a kite! In Exodus 5-9 Moses went to Pharaoh nine (9) times and nine times was refused. The passage I quoted is Exodus 10:v.1-2, just before Moses went Pharaoh for the 10th time. > God told Moses this so that Moses would > know that God was in control. So that Moses could be confident that > he wasn't out of his mind. That it was an omnipotent and omniscient > God who he was dealing with. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that God said he did something which he in fact did not do, that he only said it to encourage his listener (Moses) but didn't really mean it. Is that really what meant to say? God spent all of chapters 3 & 4 of Exodus persuading and encouraging Moses (remember the burning bush?). At that time he also said: When you (Moses) go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go." [Exodus 4 v21] > The fact that God hardened Pharoah's heart doesn't release Pharoah > from responsibility for his own actions. This is an old theological > debate from way back. Can free will and God's sovereignty both exist > at the same time. The answer is YES! I'm not discussing theology or generalizing about free will - leave that to net.philosophy. The Bible states repeatedly that in one specific place at one specific time God said that he, God, caused one man, Pharaoh of Egypt, to act as he, God, wanted. Do you believe that God means what He says in the Bible or don't you? >> The later, most destructive plagues were not necessary to provide for the >>release of the Israelites, but rather a show of the destructive power of >>the Lord. > > Wrong! It took right up to the last plague to cause Pharoah to let > them go. Than, he changed his mind again and went after them! Exodus 10: v20 (after the plague of locusts ) "But the Lord Hardened Pharaoh's heart and he did not let the children of Israel go" Exodus 10: v24 (after the plague of darkness) "Then Pharaoh called Moses and said,"Go, serve the Lord; your children also may go with you..." v27 "But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not let them go" Ex. 14: v 1-4 (after the deaths of the first-born when the Israelites were on the edge of the wilderness) "Then the Lord said to Moses,"Tell the people of Israel to encamp ... (detail of location) by the sea. For Pharaoh will say of the people of Israel, 'They are entangled in the land; the wilderness has shut them in.' And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will persue them and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all ^^^ ^ ^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^^^^ his host; ... I'm not going to waste my time and tne net's resources typing in the whole book of Exodus; you can surely find it and read it for yourself. Then you decide, if the Bible is indeed the true word of God, and if God does speak the truth, then just what does this episode show about God? Another question to consider: the disasters God caused in Egypt destroyed crops and domestic animals in all of Egypt; the hailstorm killed field workers, mainly slaves and poor peasants, in all of Egypt *except* in the land of Goshen where the Israelites were; The "first-born" who died were presumably children. If God's only goal was to free the Israelites, then, rather than attacking all these innocent bystanders, why didn't he just send a plague that would kill Pharaoh and some of his top officials? Dan, if you answer this posting at all, be sure you answer that. > Dan --Carolyn J. Clark Bitnet: CJC at PSUVM UUCP : {allegra, akgua, ihnp4}!psuvax!CJC@PSUVM.BITNET
friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) (09/19/85)
In article <2224CJC@psuvm> CJC@psuvm.BITNET writes: > > If I understand you correctly, you are saying that God said he did >something which he in fact did not do, that he only said it to encourage >his listener (Moses) but didn't really mean it. Is that really what >meant to say? God spent all of chapters 3 & 4 of Exodus persuading >and encouraging Moses (remember the burning bush?). At that time he >also said: > > I'm not discussing theology or generalizing about free will - leave >that to net.philosophy. The Bible states repeatedly that in one specific >place at one specific time God said that he, God, caused one man, >Pharaoh of Egypt, to act as he, God, wanted. Do you believe that God >means what He says in the Bible or don't you? > To me it is a matter of reading the Bible the way it was written, as a theological, not a historical, book. Really, I have never known God to actually *speak* to me in words, and I know of no one who I consider reliable who says so either. I see no reason to believe that in ancient times God spoke any differently than he does now, in subtle inner promptings. What I see happening here is the writer recasting the story in a good narrative form with clear, unequivical dialog, so the reader can understand it. Thus all that stuff is the author's *interpretation* of what was going on, not a literal account of something God said. Try thinking of it as sort of a play based on historical event rather than a modern history text. -- Sarima (Stanley Friesen) UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}!psivax!friesen ARPA: ttidca!psivax!friesen@rand-unix.arpa