purtell@reed.UUCP (Lady Godiva) (03/11/86)
First, I'd like to say that I think this was a good article, Mike. I'm not disagreeing with you at all, it just brought to mind something that I find very interesting. I'll also probably be very sorry that I did this, but here goes. In article <26@cal-asd.fluke.UUCP> ptl@fluke.UUCP (Mike Andrews) writes: > > just look at the Fruits of the Spirit >today. I've witnessed people using the Gifts of the Spirit to help others >really experience God's Love, and share it. I've been present at physical >healings. Also seen people healed of mental torments brought on by >unforgiveness or resentment. Listened to people give a word of knowledge >which God later proved true. Over the years I've met people who God gave >knowledge about me that they couldn't possibly know on their own. >I've also seen the Gifts abused - used by people who like to be known for >what God has chosen them to do. And we've all seen or heard of people >who have what appear to be gifts from God when in reality they bind others >up to dependency on the `giver of the gift'. I'm curious to know what people think about "spiritual abilities". By that term I mean the ability that some people have to know the future (whether by using cards, or some other medium, or just through uncontrollable "visions"), to heal people (physically or emotionally), to know things (we're not talking scam games "Sir, I can tell that you are very perceptive and often view the world in a different way from those around you", but people who really do know things about certain people like Mike mentioned above) people who know when someone is in trouble even though they're far away (anywhere from out of eyesight to thousands of miles), empaths (people who can feel others physical and emotional states as if they were their own), psychics, and other related things. Do you think they are all entirely phoney? (Only the physical world exists.) Some are phoney, some are true? Are they all from God, all from Satan or a mix? Are they just natural parts of people that we choose to use as we please, for God, Satan, or ourselves? And if so, are some people just naturally (meaning genetically or through how they were raised as a child) better at some of these things than others? I guess that I should say what I believe about all of this since I'm asking for what others think. I believe that some are true, some are not. (For instance, I don't believe in astrology, but I'd defend empathy as strongly as I'd defend my belief in God.) I also think that they are a natural part of being human, and that some people are better at certain things than others. (I think I'll test the water out there before saying what I think my strengths are and what experiences I've had with this sort of thing.) The only scripture that I can offer to defend my position at the moment (and this is paraphrased since I don't have my Bible with me) is the one where Christ says that many will have driven out demons and healed people, and I don't remember what else, in his name but will not enter the kingdom of heaven. There are more than this (I studied this somewhat a few years ago) but my mind isn't recalling them right now. It took me a little while to really believe in the things like this that I now believe in because I was raised in the midwest with a lot of "common sense" values. I still have those, and sometimes I have conflicts between these two things. Anyway, anyone else have any thoughts on this? Share and enjoy - elizabeth g. purtell (Lady Godiva)
homeier@aero.ARPA (Peter Homeier) (03/14/86)
Dear Elizabeth,
I really enjoyed your article, and felt that it raised a lot of
godd points, where there is likely to be a good deal of discussion.
I think you had a lot of courage, and I hope that you don't get stung
for your openness! I'd like to comment myself on my understandings,
so I'll first quote your article:
First, Mike Andrews wrote, in article <26@cal-asd.fluke.UUCP>,
>> just look at the Fruits of the Spirit
>>today. I've witnessed people using the Gifts of the Spirit to help others
>>really experience God's Love, and share it. I've been present at physical
>>healings. Also seen people healed of mental torments brought on by
>>unforgiveness or resentment. Listened to people give a word of knowledge
>>which God later proved true. Over the years I've met people who God gave
>>knowledge about me that they couldn't possibly know on their own.
Mike, you have seen great wonders and beautiful miracles of God's Spirit
in operation. I am thrilled that He has been ministering to you with such
power. Thank you for sharing these experiences. You are such a blessing
to all of us on the net. Please continue! I'd love to hear more details
about what mighty things God has done. It encourages all of us to praise
the Lord!
>>I've also seen the Gifts abused - used by people who like to be known for
>>what God has chosen them to do. And we've all seen or heard of people
>>who have what appear to be gifts from God when in reality they bind others
>>up to dependency on the `giver of the gift'.
The discriminating factor does seem to be whether the gift brings release,
freedom, and wholeness, or whether it brings bondage, works, and
condemnation. I have seen that when the Gifts are ministered properly,
people are enabled to grow and to possess more maturity, until they are able
to stand by themselves. It is a strengthening and upbuilding process, where
we edify one another, rather than supressing others or protecting our own
position. Judge the works by their fruits.
Then Elizabeth Purtell, alias "Lady Godiva", wrote in reply
> I'm curious to know what people think about "spiritual abilities".
>By that term I mean the ability that some people have to know the future
>(whether by using cards, or some other medium, or just through
>uncontrollable "visions"), to heal people (physically or emotionally),
>to know things (we're not talking scam games "Sir, I can tell that you
>are very perceptive and often view the world in a different way from
>those around you", but people who really do know things about certain
>people like Mike mentioned above) people who know when someone is in
>trouble even though they're far away (anywhere from out of eyesight to
>thousands of miles), empaths (people who can feel others physical and
>emotional states as if they were their own), psychics, and other related
>things.
> Do you think they are all entirely phoney? (Only the physical
>world exists.) Some are phoney, some are true? Are they all from God,
>all from Satan or a mix? Are they just natural parts of people that we
>choose to use as we please, for God, Satan, or ourselves? And if so, are
>some people just naturally (meaning genetically or through how they were
>raised as a child) better at some of these things than others?
Elizabeth, what you bring up is the whole world of spiritual experience.
There is so much here that needs to be sorted out. First, I believe that
not all spiritual experiences are from God, but some are from the enemy,
Satan. Such things as witchcraft, sorcery, astrology, ESP, consulting the
dead, psychic powers, astral projection, and contacting spirits are
condemned heavilly in the Bible as being works of the devil. They are not
just called sins, they are called "abominations".
"There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter
pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or
one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who conjures spells, or a
medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.
"For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord, and because of
these abominations the Lord your God drives them out from before you.
"You shall be blameless before the Lord your God.
"For these nations which you will dispossess listened to soothsayers and
diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not appointed such for you."
-- Deuteronomy 18:10-14
In the succeeding verses, the Lord describes who has been appointed for us
to listen to-- He describes, prophetically, the Lord Jesus Christ.
It is not that God is saying that these other evil spiritual devices do not
work; if they were innocuously powerless, why would He be so furious at
their use? Rather they have a real power, but they carry with them the
nature of the dark forces they come from, and therefor any use of sorcery or
psychic powers brings destruction and deep bondage to those who try to find
guidance there. It is precisely because it wrecks such deep and lasting
hurt in the lives of those who practice these that God hates them so
vehemently. And there is probably no surer way to ruin your life than to go
into these evil things.
However, Satan cannot make up anything of his own; all he can do is pervert
something that God has already created. God has already provided wonderful
avenues of spiritual experience in Him that are not only O.K., but bring a
great blessing upon those who become involved in them. These involve things
that already have been mentioned on the network, such as being filled to
overflowing with the Holy Spirit, speaking with other languages, and the
other gifts of the Holy Spirit. God wants us to go to Him for our guidance,
for He loves us, unlike Satan, who wants only to "steal, kill, and destroy".
Although we may have abilities or strength in ourselves, much of the
Christian walk is concerned with us learning that all our strength and
ability is insufficient. We learn to lay down our own ability to do things,
but instead rely on the power of the Spirit. And boy, Elizabeth, then we
can do things! We become empowered to accomplish things of eternal value,
far beyond anything that we could even have conceived of before. He, being
God, is not limited by our puny understandings and limitations. Through us
as we submit to Him, He can change the course of nations, heal multitudes,
bring salvation to benighted cultures, and soften hearts that never knew
they could feel Spring again.
> I guess that I should say what I believe about all of this since
>I'm asking for what others think. I believe that some are true, some are
>not. (For instance, I don't believe in astrology, but I'd defend empathy
>as strongly as I'd defend my belief in God.) I also think that they are
>a natural part of being human, and that some people are better at
>certain things than others. (I think I'll test the water out there
>before saying what I think my strengths are and what experiences I've
>had with this sort of thing.)
I was really interested when you mentioned empathy. This is a gift that the
Lord has given me, beginning late last year. I use it while ministering to
people in prayer. The Spirit has been placing their sufferring, their
emotions of fear, loneliness, disgust, hatred, etc. on me for a while, and
I feel the full weight of them. This can last for some time, depending on
the severity of the emotional problem, while I am in my own body feeling the
hurts that the person themselves may long ago have repressed and hidden from
their concious mind. But through this release, the Lord brings the pain
first to me, and then I give it to Him, and the person I am praying for
receives healing in that area. It is an intensely powerful experience, and
as much a blessing for me to minister it as it is for the person I am
praying for.
This gift, I am absolutely certain, comes from God the Holy Spirit.
Believe me, there is no way I could do this or turn it on myself. It is God
working through me in the power of His Spirit who does the healing. There
is nothing so obvious to me as the fact that it is not I who accomplish it,
it is God. Therefore I must say that I do not believe that this comes just
as a natural part of being human. It is most definitely a gift from God.
Now perhaps you had a different meaning for the word "empathy". If you just
meant the common human sympathy or understanding, then sure, lots of people
have that in themselves. But if you meant the power gift of healing people,
then no, that gift only comes from God or the enemy. For the enemy tries to
counterfeit everything that is found in God's Kingdom.
But I also believe that not every believer has this gift of empathy from
God. So I have a particular ministry, to pray for people for healing, just
as others have ministries like evangelism or teaching, for which they have
been given other gifts from God. This way we all fit together into a Body,
where each part does its part in contributing to the whole.
> The only scripture that I can offer to defend my position at the
>moment (and this is paraphrased since I don't have my Bible with me) is
>the one where Christ says that many will have driven out demons and
>healed people, and I don't remember what else, in his name but
>will not enter the kingdom of heaven. There are more than this
>(I studied this somewhat a few years ago) but my mind isn't recalling
>them right now. It took me a little while to really believe in the
>things like this that I now believe in because I was raised in the
>midwest with a lot of "common sense" values. I still have those, and
>sometimes I have conflicts between these two things.
> Anyway, anyone else have any thoughts on this?
You are right, Christ did say that at the Ressurrection, many would come
before Him and profess that they did great works, even miracles, in His
name. But He, knowing their hearts and not just their outward show, will
call them truly people whom He never knew, and they shall be cast into the
fires of Hell. We can't judge people by what we see. We don't know their
hearts. But God knows by what power these signs were done, whether it was
from Him or the other side.
I know how you feel about these things and "common sense". Crazy, isn't
it? But when it's in the Lord, it's fun, and it's safe, and it's good.
Just make sure it's in the Lord. And the best guides for this are
1. The Bible, the Word of God
2. The Holy Spirit
3. Your brethren, particularly your pastoral authority.
Your brother in Christ,
Peter Homeier
--
Peter Homeier ______
Arpanet: homeier@aerospace / o \_/
UUCP: ..!ihnp4!trwrb!aero!homeier \___)__/ \
The Aerospace Corporation, M1-108
El Segundo, CA 90245
Disclaimer: Anything expressed above is my personal opinion, and not
the position of the Aerospace Corporation.devonst@burdvax.UUCP (Tom Albrecht) (03/14/86)
In article <aero.328> homeier@aero.UUCP (Peter Homeier) writes: > [to Lady G.] >> I guess that I should say what I believe about all of this since >>I'm asking for what others think. I believe that some are true, some are >>not. (For instance, I don't believe in astrology, but I'd defend empathy >>as strongly as I'd defend my belief in God.) I also think that they are >>a natural part of being human, and that some people are better at >>certain things than others. (I think I'll test the water out there >>before saying what I think my strengths are and what experiences I've >>had with this sort of thing.) > >I was really interested when you mentioned empathy. This is a gift that the >Lord has given me, beginning late last year. I use it while ministering to >people in prayer. The Spirit has been placing their sufferring, their >emotions of fear, loneliness, disgust, hatred, etc. on me for a while, and >I feel the full weight of them. This can last for some time, depending on >the severity of the emotional problem, while I am in my own body feeling the >hurts that the person themselves may long ago have repressed and hidden from >their concious mind. But through this release, the Lord brings the pain >first to me, and then I give it to Him, and the person I am praying for >receives healing in that area. It is an intensely powerful experience, and >as much a blessing for me to minister it as it is for the person I am >praying for. An interesting observation. One question, though; where does God speak of this so-called gift in the Bible? Is this a manifestation of the Spirit's work in a way not discussed in Scripture? What kind of healing are you talking about here? Is this physical healings like Jesus making the blind see and the lame walk? > >This gift, I am absolutely certain, comes from God the Holy Spirit. How do you know that? Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. If it's not based entirely on the Bible, how do you know it's from God? >> The only scripture that I can offer to defend my position at the >>moment (and this is paraphrased since I don't have my Bible with me) is >>the one where Christ says that many will have driven out demons and >>healed people, and I don't remember what else, in his name but >>will not enter the kingdom of heaven. There are more than this >>(I studied this somewhat a few years ago) but my mind isn't recalling >>them right now. It took me a little while to really believe in the >>things like this that I now believe in because I was raised in the >>midwest with a lot of "common sense" values. I still have those, and >>sometimes I have conflicts between these two things. >> Anyway, anyone else have any thoughts on this? > >You are right, Christ did say that at the Ressurrection, many would come >before Him and profess that they did great works, even miracles, in His >name. But He, knowing their hearts and not just their outward show, will >call them truly people whom He never knew, and they shall be cast into the >fires of Hell. We can't judge people by what we see. We don't know their >hearts. But God knows by what power these signs were done, whether it was >from Him or the other side. The Bible does teach that we can judge a person by his works. Jesus said that if a person truly loves Him that person will keep Christ's commandments. Works, not supernatural manifestations, are the evidence of salvation. John says that love of the brethren is evidence of love of Christ. James says that love of widows and orphans is evidence of love of Christ. Nowhere in Scripture does it say that healings or speaking in tongues is evidence of love of Christ. Jesus didn't say to Peter, "Speak in tongues." He said, "Feed my sheep." He said, "They will know you are my disciples because you love one another." > >I know how you feel about these things and "common sense". Crazy, isn't >it? But when it's in the Lord, it's fun, and it's safe, and it's good. >Just make sure it's in the Lord. And the best guides for this are > 1. The Bible, the Word of God > 2. The Holy Spirit > 3. Your brethren, particularly your pastoral authority. > > Your brother in Christ, > > Peter Homeier > That's good common sense. We should all follow it.
purtell@reed.UUCP (Lady Godiva) (03/16/86)
In article <328@aero.ARPA> homeier@aero.UUCP (Peter Homeier) writes: >Dear Elizabeth, > > I really enjoyed your article, and felt that it raised a lot of >godd points, where there is likely to be a good deal of discussion. >I think you had a lot of courage, and I hope that you don't get stung >for your openness! Thanks - I'm interested to see how it goes. >Elizabeth, what you bring up is the whole world of spiritual experience. >There is so much here that needs to be sorted out. First, I believe that >not all spiritual experiences are from God, but some are from the enemy, >Satan. Such things as witchcraft, sorcery, astrology, ESP, consulting the >dead, psychic powers, astral projection, and contacting spirits are >condemned heavilly in the Bible as being works of the devil. They are not >just called sins, they are called "abominations". Yes, and I basically agree. I'm just wondering if people think that they are things that you definitely receive, like the holy spirit, or if they are just parts of us that we are born with and some are born with more potential in certain areas than others, some learn more about these things than others, and different people choose to use these abilities for different purposes. I'm also curious as to why you include ESP (I assume that by that you mean the ability to read others thoughts, if only in spurts) and astral projection as being works of the devil. >I was really interested when you mentioned empathy. This is a gift that the >Lord has given me, beginning late last year. Now I'm curious, why do you think that the Lord gave you this gift last year, as opposed to your having it all along but not using it? I'm not saying that you're wrong, I'm just wondering. I've been an empath, both physically and emotionally, for as long as I can remember, well before I was a Christian. And I know one person in particular who I know is an empath and also an agnostic. These are some of the reasons that I believe that empathy is something that some (not all) people are born with and some use more fully than others. I'm the only physical empath that I know and with one exception I'm the strongest emotional empath that I know. But then, this isn't really something that I and my friends discuss very much, so that is a rather limited claim. >I use it while ministering to >people in prayer. The Spirit has been placing their sufferring, their >emotions of fear, loneliness, disgust, hatred, etc. on me for a while, and >I feel the full weight of them. This can last for some time, depending on >the severity of the emotional problem, while I am in my own body feeling the >hurts that the person themselves may long ago have repressed and hidden from >their concious mind. But through this release, the Lord brings the pain >first to me, and then I give it to Him, and the person I am praying for >receives healing in that area. It is an intensely powerful experience, and >as much a blessing for me to minister it as it is for the person I am >praying for. I like this. It's pretty much exactly how I do it. I've found that there are two ways of helping people. (Being an empath means that not only can you feel their pain but you can usually do something about it.) One is to remove the pain and give it to God. The other is to be a channel for God to heal them. The latter is the only one that I use for physical pain. It's sort of a difference between taking out the bad (in the first method) and putting in the good (in the second one.) But that's a very bad explanation so don't hold me to it too literally. >This gift, I am absolutely certain, comes from God the Holy Spirit. Maybe. But I tend to believe that it is something that people are born with and can be used for God and is almost always a good thing to have. (I can't think of a reason why it would be bad for someone to be an empath, but I'm not so certain about that as to not leave myself room.) >Believe me, there is no way I could do this or turn it on myself. It is God >working through me in the power of His Spirit who does the healing. There >is nothing so obvious to me as the fact that it is not I who accomplish it, >it is God. Therefore I must say that I do not believe that this comes just >as a natural part of being human. It is most definitely a gift from God. But in a sense all of our 5 senses are a gift from God. And since I do know agnostics (and atheists) who have this gift, to various degrees, I can't believe that it is only for Christians. I do believe, however, that God works through atheists and agnostics, so in a roundabout way I may agree with you. >Now perhaps you had a different meaning for the word "empathy". If you just >meant the common human sympathy or understanding, then sure, lots of people >have that in themselves. But if you meant the power gift of healing people, >then no, that gift only comes from God or the enemy. For the enemy tries to >counterfeit everything that is found in God's Kingdom. No - I think we have the same meaning in mind. But healing is not the same as empathy. Empathy is feeling the pain, healing is doing something about it. The two do not necessarily go hand in hand. >But I also believe that not every believer has this gift of empathy from >God. So I have a particular ministry, to pray for people for healing, just >as others have ministries like evangelism or teaching, for which they have >been given other gifts from God. This way we all fit together into a Body, >where each part does its part in contributing to the whole. I agree entirely. >I know how you feel about these things and "common sense". Crazy, isn't >it? But when it's in the Lord, it's fun, and it's safe, and it's good. >Just make sure it's in the Lord. And the best guides for this are > 1. The Bible, the Word of God > 2. The Holy Spirit > 3. Your brethren, particularly your pastoral authority. A very tentative yes. (I don't believe in pastoral authority.) Share and enjoy - elizabeth g. purtell (Lady Godiva)
purtell@reed.UUCP (Lady Godiva) (03/16/86)
In article <2398@burdvax.UUCP> devonst@burdvax.UUCP (Tom Albrecht) writes: >In article <aero.328> homeier@aero.UUCP (Peter Homeier) writes: >> >>I was really interested when you mentioned empathy. This is a gift that the >>Lord has given me, beginning late last year. >An interesting observation. One question, though; where does God speak of >this so-called gift in the Bible? Is this a manifestation of the Spirit's >work in a way not discussed in Scripture? What kind of healing are you >talking about here? Is this physical healings like Jesus making the blind >see and the lame walk? I can't answer for Peter, but I can for myself. The healing can be physical or emotional, although it's more often the latter. (At least in my case.) I don't know offhand if there is a scripture that talks about empathy directly or indirectly, although I can't believe that Christ wasn't an empath. >>This gift, I am absolutely certain, comes from God the Holy Spirit. >How do you know that? Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. >If it's not based entirely on the Bible, how do you know it's from God? Why does everything have to be based entirely on the Bible? I don't mean that as an attack, but I have really never understood why some Christians reject anything that is not specifically mentioned in scripture. Why would Satan want people to be able to feel each others pain and to try to help one another? Christ said to love your neighbor. It is so much easier to love as well as to help if you know at least in part what a person is feeling. Where they're coming from. I can't tell you the number of times that my anger, pride, hate, envy, etc. has been lessened or disappeared entirely because I took the time (or God forced me) to feel what the other person was feeling. Being an empath helps the empath just as much as they will ever help anyone else. If you listen to it and use it it will bring you closer to other people and closer to God. The most intense experience I've ever had with empathy is feeling pain from a large number of people. I mean just suddenly feeling the pain and loneliness and helplessness of hundreds and thousands of people. It's happened to me three times. It's nothing that I can control. It lasts for a minute or two and then goes away. It's incredible. I'm convinced that it is God reminding me of how lucky I am, and how much pain there is out there that he wants to do something about, through me. It renews my love for people, and reminds me of how much he loves us. I cannot believe that it comes anywhere but from God. >The Bible does teach that we can judge a person by his works. Jesus said >that if a person truly loves Him that person will keep Christ's >commandments. Works, not supernatural manifestations, are the evidence of >salvation. John says that love of the brethren is evidence of love of >Christ. James says that love of widows and orphans is evidence of love of >Christ. Nowhere in Scripture does it say that healings or speaking in >tongues is evidence of love of Christ. Jesus didn't say to Peter, "Speak >in tongues." He said, "Feed my sheep." He said, "They will know you are >my disciples because you love one another." Nobody said that this had anything to do with salvation. I would never ever say that. But that doesn't mean that the supernatural is pure imagination, or that it is from Satan. I claim that it is something that is a natural part of people (not just empathy, but other supernatural abilities as well) and that it can be used for God. And love is the key. Empathy can help you to love. Share and enjoy - elizabeth g. purtell (Lady Godiva)
mrh@cybvax0.UUCP (Mike Huybensz) (03/17/86)
In article <328@aero.ARPA> homeier@aero.UUCP (Peter Homeier) writes: > Then Elizabeth Purtell, alias "Lady Godiva", wrote in reply > > > I'm curious to know what people think about "spiritual abilities". > > ... Such things as witchcraft, sorcery, astrology, ESP, consulting the > dead, psychic powers, astral projection, and contacting spirits are > condemned heavilly in the Bible as being works of the devil. They are not > just called sins, they are called "abominations". > > "There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter > pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or > one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who conjures spells, or a > medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. > > "For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord, and because of > these abominations the Lord your God drives them out from before you. As I recall (perhaps incorrectly), are found right next to the prohibition against eating pork (and other "unclean" substances) which is phrased in much the same way. Why is it then that Christians now eat pork but still don't accept "spiritual abilities" of the sorts Elizabeth asked about? -- Mike Huybensz ...decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!cybvax0!mrh
devonst@burdvax.UUCP (Tom Albrecht) (03/18/86)
In article <reed.2799> purtell@reed.UUCP (Lady Godiva) writes: >In article <2398@burdvax.UUCP> devonst@burdvax.UUCP (Tom Albrecht) writes: >>In article <aero.328> homeier@aero.UUCP (Peter Homeier) writes: >>> >>>I was really interested when you mentioned empathy. This is a gift that the >>>Lord has given me, beginning late last year. > >>An interesting observation. One question, though; where does God speak of >>this so-called gift in the Bible? Is this a manifestation of the Spirit's >>work in a way not discussed in Scripture? What kind of healing are you >>talking about here? Is this physical healings like Jesus making the blind >>see and the lame walk? > > I can't answer for Peter, but I can for myself. The healing can be >physical or emotional, although it's more often the latter. (At least in >my case.) I don't know offhand if there is a scripture that talks about >empathy directly or indirectly, although I can't believe that Christ >wasn't an empath. I can't believe that Christ wasn't a Rotarian, but I can't find anything in the Bible that says He was :-). We can project all sort of ideas as to what kind of person Jesus Christ is. The only ones that are valid, however, are those that are plainly taught in His Word. Otherwise you have a God made in the image of man. > >>>This gift, I am absolutely certain, comes from God the Holy Spirit. > >>How do you know that? Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. >>If it's not based entirely on the Bible, how do you know it's from God? > > Why does everything have to be based entirely on the Bible? I >don't mean that as an attack, but I have really never understood why >some Christians reject anything that is not specifically mentioned in >scripture. What other standard would you suggest the church use for determining what constitutes orthodoxy? We could use the Roman Catholic standard of tradition and the Bible, or we could use the Anabaptist method of relying on the Spirit to enlighten each one possibly apart from the Bible. Those churches that came out of the Reformation have chosen to use the Bible alone as the infallible guide to faith and practice. Generally, they believe II Timothy 3:16 speaks to the uniqueness of Scripture as a guide in Christian living. > Share and enjoy - > > elizabeth g. purtell > > (Lady Godiva)