morse@leadsv.UUCP (Terry Morse) (03/12/86)
It seems to me that Jews have historically been easy marks for
persecution. I don't think that the primary reason for this persecution
is that Judaism runs counter to Christianity. That is a secondary reason at
best.
I beleive, rather, that practicing the Jewish faith necessarily separated
the Jewish community from the rest of society. Maintaining a kosher diet
keeps Jews from eating with Gentiles, thus erecting a fairly large
social barrier. Prohibition against interreligious marriage was another
such barrier.
Because of their social isolation, Jews living in foreign countries were
viewed with curiosity by the natives. This curiosity was easily
turned to contempt and hatred in times of stress by ambitious leaders.
What I'm trying to assert is that Jews have not been persecuted historically
for their religion per se, but because of their social customs that are
a result of their religious beliefs. It was easy to learn to hate those
"funny people" in the community that kept to themselves all the time.
I've come to this conclusion by speaking to a Jewish friend and reading some
Russian and German history. Does anyone have any comments either way? I
welcome other opinions.
--
Terry Morse (408)743-1487
{ hplabs!cae780 } | { ihnp4!sun!sunncal } !leadsv!morseabeles@mhuxm.UUCP (J. Abeles (Bellcore, Murray Hill, NJ)) (03/14/86)
> It seems to me that Jews have historically been easy marks for > persecution. I don't think that the primary reason for this persecution > is that Judaism runs counter to Christianity. That is a secondary reason at > best. (& etc., etc.) In my opinion there are a lot of facts to be reconciled with any simple theory explaining the persistent persecution of Jews and Judaism. For starters, Jews have been viciously persecuted in virtually all of the European countries (including the ones we view as enlightened today such as England) in which they have resided. Next, there have been many other identifiable ethnic groups which were not similarly persecuted. Oh, yes, they may have been second-class citizens in a foreign culture; that's different. One possible conclusion would be that the lack of a homeland is what causes persecution of Jews. All other ethnic groups originate somewhere or other and could go back there, giving them some strength. Thus arose "The Jewish Question" and its solution was Zionism. But antisemitism still continues and Soviet Russia still persecutes Jews. It is not inconceivable that further Jewish persecution could occur on a grand scale (similar to Hitler) if the world economy was seriously depressed as in Weimar Germany. The real question is "Why are Jews chosen to be the scapegoats?" Is is because we seem to be more financially successful than the average? Is that even true, or is it a distortion of statistics? (Surely there are many incredibly wealthy non-Jews.) Is it because we are better educated than the average? In Russia Jews are prevented from competing on an equal basis for university entrance. In the United States the Ivy League Colleges and MIT have a greater proportion of Jewish students than our number in the general population (some 3% in the general population). Personally, I believe that one should not discount the influence of the Christian Churches. After all, during the Dark Ages the only functioning institution was the Church (to some approximation). And, the Church was virulently anti-Jewish during that time all the way up to the sixties (the Catholic priests in Catholic Europe did next to nothing to stop the Germans). The Church still does not recognize the State of Israel. But more important is the establishment of a culture among Christians over many centuries, a culture which cannot be easily purged of its anti-Judaism, and which lies just beneath the surface spread over many millions of Christians. It will take a long time before that can be changed. --J. Abeles mhuxm!abeles
kort@hounx.UUCP (B.KORT) (03/14/86)
Based on my observations of the postings and responses on the
net, I have begun to form a hypothesis as to the cause and
effect of persecution. We have seen some examples of strong-minded
intellectual presentations which, in some cases were treated with
contempt and derision aimed at the person presenting the views in
question. We have seen many-on-one collections of negative opinion,
mostly centering on a strategy of ignoring the presentations of
the offending poster. Its easy to imagine how such treatment
could lead to feelings of persecution.
So I draw two tentative conclusions, both speculative theories
to be further tested by experimental evidence:
1. Intellectuals are at risk in our society. By exhibiting their
powers of intellect, they expose themselves to ostracism and
alienation.
2. The degree to which a particular intellectually-minded individual
is subjected to such treatment is highly correlated with the
degree of civility and diplomacy with which he presents his
lines of reasoning.
Does this theory capture the dynamic of the interplay that we have
seen both historically and here on the net? If the theory is on
the right track, can it be elaborated and perfected to achieve
a deeper understanding of this recurring human tragedy?
--Barry Kort ...ihnp4!hounx!kortgsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) (03/16/86)
In article <852@leadsv.UUCP> morse@leadsv.UUCP (Terry Morse) writes: >What I'm trying to assert is that Jews have not been persecuted historically >for their religion per se, but because of their social customs that are >a result of their religious beliefs. It was easy to learn to hate those >"funny people" in the community that kept to themselves all the time. > >I've come to this conclusion by speaking to a Jewish friend and reading some >Russian and German history. Does anyone have any comments either way? I >welcome other opinions. The Gypsies also maintained (and still maintain) a separate cultural identity. They were a part of the Holocaust -- in fact, a much larger part than most people are aware of. I think this shows your theory must have some validity. ucbvax!brahms!gsmith Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!weyl!gsmith "When Ubizmo talks, people listen."
fsks@unc.UUCP (Frank Silbermann) (03/18/86)
In article <532@mhuxm.UUCP> abeles@mhuxm.UUCP (J. Abeles (Bellcore, Murray Hill, NJ)) writes: > The real question is "Why are Jews chosen to be the scapegoats?" > Is is because we seem to be more financially successful than the > average? Is that even true, or is it a distortion of statistics? No, this cannot be the reason. The European royalty and nobility were always much richer than any Jews, yet these people were honored, rather than despised. > Is it because we are better educated than the average? No, the Christian clergy was always better educated than the laity, yet the common people honored and respected them. > Jews have been viciously persecuted in virtually all > of the European countries in which they have resided. > There have been many other identifiable ethnic groups > which were not similarly persecuted. Oh, yes, they > may have been second-class citizens in a foreign culture; > that's different. Jews were rarely persecuted for being an identifiable ethnic group. The Nazi period was the big exception, of course, but generally, Jews who converted to whatever religion was locally dominant (whether Islam or Christianity) were well accepted. Especially when the conversion was seen as a sincere act of faith, rather than a cynical career move. > Personally, I believe that one should not discount the influence > of the Christian Churches. After all, during the Dark Ages the > only functioning institution was the Church (to some approximation). > And, the Church was virulently anti-Jewish during that time all > the way up to the sixties. Christian churchs were not so much anti-Jewish as anti-dissent of any kind. Indeed, they often treated gentile dissenters much more harshly than Jews. For instance, the Christian world would not tolerate Islam at all. In France, the Catholic massecre of the Hugonauts was as bloody as any anti-Jewish pogram. But after that, the Protestants (for the most part) jut stayed out of France completely, while the Jews, would always return. Likewise for Catholics living in Protestant countries. If we Jews suffered more, it is because we wouldn't give up. Gentiles avoided this kind of persecution by going with the flow. Peasants were quite willing to accept whatever religious denomination the aristocracy dictated for them. Aristocrats often chose their religion on political grounds. Even today, I've run into several fellows of Catholic background who switched to a mainstream Protestant church upon moving to the deep South. Their explanation: "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." Think about your own experiences. In junior high school, how were non-conformists treated? Were they respected for their independence of judgement, or were they ridiculed and tormented? Jews faced the same persecution faced by all non-conformists, Christian or otherwise. Frank Silbermann
kort@hounx.UUCP (B.KORT) (03/18/86)
Frank Silberman is on to some good insights concerning historical persecution of Jews. In particular, I would like to pick up on his notion of nonconformity as a proximal cause of persecution. Conformity is the unthinking imitation of the currently popular modes of behavior. The creative intellectual is one who asks, Why or Why Not questions. To be sure, the Jews have a long tradition of intellectual development. But Gentile intellectuals have also suffered similar persecution. Don Quixote is an apt example here. --Barry Kort ...ihnp4!hounx!kort "I have never been able to conceive how any rational being could propose happiness to himself from the exercise of power over others." --Thomas Jefferson
weemba@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Matthew P. Wiener) (03/20/86)
In article <852@leadsv.UUCP> morse@leadsv.UUCP (Terry Morse) writes: >It seems to me that Jews have historically been easy marks for >persecution. I don't think that the primary reason for this persecution >is that Judaism runs counter to Christianity. That is a secondary reason at >best. I'll agree in general, but I am curious if the roots of Christian anti-Semitism go back to the first century CE or not. Were the early Christians so annoyed at their twain for not seeing the light that bigotry developed? And were the early Christians trying to disassociate themselves from the disasters that befell the Jews in 66-70 CE in the Jew-Roman war? These questions are probably unanswerable. ucbvax!brahms!weemba Matthew P Wiener/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720
barry@ames.UUCP (Kenn Barry) (03/22/86)
From Matthew Wiener (brahms!weemba): >I am curious if the roots of Christian >anti-Semitism go back to the first century CE or not. Were the >early Christians so annoyed at their twain for not seeing the light >that bigotry developed? And were the early Christians trying to >disassociate themselves from the disasters that befell the Jews >in 66-70 CE in the Jew-Roman war? > >These questions are probably unanswerable. Actually, we can make some educated guesses. Some of the early Nazarenes (Xians) had already parted company with the Torah by 30-40 AD. There seems to have been considerable friction between the Nazarenes and Pharasaic Judaism almost from the beginning. The real break came, as you suggest, in 66 AD. The Xians refused to join the Jews in defense of Jerusalem (possibly because of their belief that the end of the world was just around the corner, but that's speculation), and instead fled the city. After that, no Jew considered them a branch of Judaism. As for the Xians, they probably bore grudges about the executions of some early Xian leaders at the behest of the Sanhedrin. I'm skeptical of the idea that modern antisemitism is explained by this ancient history, but it does seem clear that Xianity and Judaism were at odds from the very start. And the Xians were actually picking up what was already a long-standing tradition. The Romans were down on the Jews before Jesus was ever born, and Hellenic-Semitic conflicts go back even farther. Many of the coastal settlements in Palestine were Greek from time immemorial (e.g., the Philistines were a Hellenic people); the conflict was an ancient one. It was perhaps natural, as Xianity became less Semitic and more Hellenistic in its philosophy and outlook, that it picked up some long-standing Greek cultural prejudices. Indeed, the first Nazarenes to forsake the Torah appear to be Jews who'd already left traditional Judaism behind for Hellenism, judging by their names (e.g., Stephen). That other Jews also refused to acknowledge their messiah was just more fuel for the fire. - From the Crow's Nest - Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ELECTRIC AVENUE: {ihnp4,vortex,dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames!barry
gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) (03/23/86)
In article <125@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU> martillo@trillian.UUCP (Yakim Martillo) writes: >In article <12413@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> gsmith@brahms.UUCP (Gene Ward Smith) writes: >>In article <852@leadsv.UUCP> morse@leadsv.UUCP (Terry Morse) writes: >>>What I'm trying to assert is that Jews have not been persecuted historically >>>for their religion per se, but because of their social customs that are >>>a result of their religious beliefs. It was easy to learn to hate those >>>"funny people" in the community that kept to themselves all the time. [MORSE] >> The Gypsies also maintained (and still maintain) a separate cultural >>identity. They were a part of the Holocaust -- in fact, a much larger part >>than most people are aware of. I think this shows your theory must have >>some validity. [ME] >Hogwash! In the middle east and north africa, Jewish social customs >and practices are not that different from the dominant Muslims, yet >Jews suffered a great deal of persecution and discrimination while in >China where Jewish practices were quite different from the majority >Han, the local Jews suffered no problems at all (except now and then >from local Muslims). My point was not that this provided a complete explanation (since I don't think it does). It was rather that the analogy with gypsies supports the notion that it provides a partial explanation. Gypsies have their own not inconsiderable history of persecution. ucbvax!brahms!gsmith Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720 Fifty flippant frogs / Walked by on flippered feet And with their slime they made the time / Unnaturally fleet.
weemba@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Matthew P. Wiener) (03/23/86)
In article <2778@pyuxd.UUCP> rlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Rich Rosen) writes: >> >[Terry Morse on persecution.] >> I'll agree in general, but I am curious if the roots of Christian >> anti-Semitism go back to the first century CE or not. Were the >> early Christians so annoyed at their twain for not seeing the light >> that bigotry developed? And were the early Christians trying to >> disassociate themselves from the disasters that befell the Jews >> in 66-70 CE in the Jew-Roman war? > >Certainly those early Christians weren't exactly in any positions of power >to persecute in those days. They were probably no better off in that >regard than the Jews were. It seems to me that the persecution followed >the rise to power of the church in society. Therefore it seems kind of >irrelevant to proclaim "but they didn't persecute from the very beginning" >when there was no "power to persecute" until much later. When it was used. > >> These questions are probably unanswerable. > >Or not. My questions were about the roots of bigotry, not of persecution. ucbvax!brahms!weemba Matthew P Wiener/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720
mat@mtx5a.UUCP (m.terribile) (03/24/86)
> Personally, I believe that one should not discount the influence > of the Christian Churches. After all, during the Dark Ages the > only functioning institution was the Church (to some approximation). > And, the Church was virulently anti-Jewish during that time all > the way up to the sixties (the Catholic priests in Catholic > Europe did next to nothing to stop the Germans). The Church > still does not recognize the State of Israel. Hmm. I seem to recall a number of bishops and nuns who put their lives at stake helping Jews out of countries controlled by Nazis or quislings. What about the thousands of false baptismal certificates that were distributed? The fact is that almost nobody saw Naziism for what it was. Almost nobody in Europe OR North America believed the stories about the death camps. Only a few understood and they were ridiculed. Churchill, Stephenson, Rockefeller, FDR, Morgenthau, a few others. FDR LIED to the American people as he campaigned as a pacifist against a pacifist, while he secretly prepared this country for war. It was a courageous act, and the world owes him more than we can ever hope to repay. Churchill saw, and Stephenson the industrialist wandered in and out of Hitler's inner circle gathering information, seeing and hearing. But these were exceptions. Protestants in the US, Catholics, Jews who could not believe the rumors, all contributed to Hitler's success. Remember, it was an accident of birth, nothing more, that kept you from operating the killing centers. -- from Mole End Mark Terribile (scrape .. dig ) mtx5b!mat (Please mail to mtx5b!mat, NOT mtx5a! mat, or to mtx5a!mtx5b!mat) ,.. .,, ,,, ..,***_*.
emery@fluke.UUCP (John Emery) (03/24/86)
In article <335@aero.ARPA> homeier@aero.UUCP (Peter Homeier) writes: >My personal opinion is spiritual. I believe that God deeply and specially >loves the Jewish people, and that they have always and will always be >particularly blessed and graced by Him, as His chosen people. Since God >loves them, Satan hates them. I believe that it is Satan's hatred of God >that leads him to inspire all these persecutions, as a way of getting back >at the Lord through His relativily unprotected people. I just don't see how >you can explain the consistent, virulent hatred of the Jews except as a >planned program by the enemy. My beliefs also, from the heart. To me, the Jews are a special people. All the stories of the Old Testament in which God chooses these people and reveals himself to them are beautiful. I believe also that the Jews will always be special to God. Just as there are false Christians, there are also false Jews. They are put there by the enemy to arouse hatred towards the whole people. Satan knows the tendencies of the human heart and how easy it is to promote prejudice to a group. >In whatever way Christians or anyone else have been acting to persecute the >Jews, they have been serving Satan, not God. The first letter of John gives us words which we should take to heart when considering one group persecuting another, in this case Christians persecuting Jews: "Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, becaus the devil has been sinning from the beginning. ... This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; neither is anyone who does not love his brother." 1 John 3:7,8,10 Anyone can claim to be a child of God. Anyone can claim to be a Christian. However, a true child of God is born of God and since God is love, a true child of God lives in love. Regardless of who we are talking about, the way to separate the sheep from the goats is by their fruits of their deeds: "The man who says, 'I know him,' but does not do what he commands is a liar and the truth is not in him." 1 John 2:4 "And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love." 2 John 6 Those who preach persecution are of the flesh and not of the Spirit of God. Man's downfall has been to uplift himself. And as part of this human nature, man tends to prejudge others in order to exhault himself. How often does man prejudge an entire group of people based on the actions of a few within the group. How often does man magnify the shortcommings of a few and apply it to a whole group. All this comes from the self seeking nature of man and is not of God. "Live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you." 2 Cor. 13:11 John Emery -- UUCP: {uw-beaver, sun, allegra, sb6, lbl-csam}!fluke!emery "...and if have faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing." 1 Corinthians 13:2 "And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love." 1 Corinthians 13:13
gkm@ho95e.UUCP (gkm) (03/24/86)
While it may be true that it is not now the official position of any major christian denomination to be anti-Jewish, I have run into many "christians" who make derogatory statements about the Jews and exhibit anti-Jewish behavior. I also have not read what Martin Luther had to say about Jews, but have read some statements on this net to the effect that he was quite anti-Jewish. (I'd appriciate a reference by Martin Luther in which he so positions himself- not what someone else says that he said.) Anyway, I believe that the NT clearly is against anti-Semitism. I've tried to explain to "christians" that I've heard make such statements that their LORD was Jewish, according to the flesh, and that our Bible came from the Jews. I believe if anything that Christians should treat Jewish people with more respect- if for no other reason than that it was through them that God chose to deliver to us His word. Sincerely, Gary McNees