pete@octopus.UUCP (Pete Holzmann) (09/19/86)
The question was: what is the saving action? What does it take to be saved?
Is it just believing in Jesus' gift of salvation?
(that last part simplified)
My answer:
Yes, it *is* just believing that's needed. I'll answer two follow-on
questions:
Why is believing all that's needed?
Because that's the only thing we can 'bring to the bargaining
table', so to speak. If we can't be perfect apart from God,
and we can't be with God unless we're perfect, then God has
to do all the work (done thru Jesus) to get us back together.
What is 'believing' in this context?
It is *not* belief in the sense of 'I agree that something
is true'. Clearly, Satan believes in the truth of what
Jesus tells us, yet that doesn't save him!
It *is* belief in the sense of 'I believe that God's gift
is for *me*, and I accept it, and I'll make God as much a
part of my life as I can from now on'. That doesn't make
me suddenly any better. But it is belief with *commitment*
to what I believe in, *action* as a natural result of that
belief, and it is the beginning of a relationship, not just
a set of facts tucked away in a notebook.
Clearly, even after the decision is made, nobody is able to
perfectly act on their belief- we 'lose faith'; we still 'sin';
we get mad at God; we even reject God sometimes. But, once
we have truly accepted His gift for ourselves, God doesn't let
us go again. One piece of knowledge that I think only God has
is: who has truly accepted His gift? I can't really judge
others in this regard, although *actions* can speak rather
loudly, in terms of circumstantial evidence as to who has really
become a Christ-follower.
Hope this answered your question ok.
--
OOO __| ___ Peter Holzmann, Octopus Enterprises
OOOOOOO___/ _______ USPS: 19611 La Mar Court, Cupertino, CA 95014
OOOOO \___/ UUCP: {hplabs!hpdsd,pyramid}!octopus!pete
___| \_____ Phone: 408/996-7746ptl@fluke.UUCP (Mike Andrews) (09/22/86)
Hi, In article <1018@tekcrl.UUCP> daveh@tekcrl.UUCP (Dave Hatcher) writes: > Here is my question; >> 1. What is the saving action? >... This is Mike Andrews response to the problem: >> the saving action is Jesus Christ. Jesus said "I am the way the >>truth and the life *no one* goes to the Father execpt by me" Jesus was the >>supreme showing of how much God loves us. "But God demonstrates His own >>love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" (Rom.5:8) I heartily agree with the statements, though I didn't write them. I can't find who did, either. > But I still have a problem with the final solution to the problem! > > Something isn't covered! >... What I'm trying to get to, is the point where a Christian > experiences salvation. Or at least begins to anyway. > To beleive that Jesus died for our sins, and to experience > the saving action, to me, is working on two different levels. >... Dave Hatcher Believing and experiencing don't have to occur together; either one can occur separately from the other, and usually does. At least in my life and the lives of many other Christians I know. Look at the number of people who didn't believe, but had such a powerful experience of God's love that they decided to believe in Him and His promises. The flip side are the people who are taught to believe, say from infancy, then they later have an experience of the reality of a loving God which builds up their belief. Faith is a Catch-22: You have to believe you have it so you can have it. Asking for the Gift of Faith, then waiting for lightening bolts to prove you've `got it', will mean a very long wait. I'm speaking from personal experience. Scripture tells us how once when Jesus visited His home town, even He couldn't do any major miracles simply because the people didn't believe in Him. And He is God. God couldn't work in peoples lives because of their own unbelief. There's the catch - you choose to believe God is true to His word, to love and forgive you, then you live your life believing He does. Now He can love you and forgive you, bring changes into your life, helping you live life to the fullest, as scripture says. Funny thing about all this is that once you choose to believe in a loving God, you eventually find out He had called to you long before you called to Him --- why do you think you have the desire to believe in Him? Make your personal choice, right now, to believe in a loving God, Who chose you before you were even born to receive His love and promises. Then find other Christians, who like yourself are trying to better accept a love you can never fully understand. Get Baptised if you haven't been already - there is a Divine power God places in the simple cleansing act of pouring water over your forehead, or complete emersion. Different churches, different methods, but the same God and the same Divine power involved. All God's richest blessings, keep in touch, Mike Andrews P.S. :-) Believe it or not, some Roman Catholic churches now use complete emersion; it is up to the local pastor. Good thing I was Baptised as an infant by pouring water over my forehead, I'd drown the other way.
rush@cwrudg.UUCP (rush) (09/23/86)
In article <1018@tekcrl.UUCP> daveh@tekcrl.UUCP (Dave Hatcher) writes: >Newsgroups: net.religion.christian >Subject: Re: Salvation questions > > Here is my question; > >> 1. What is the saving action? (~30 lines of text on the theology of salvation) > > But I still have a problem with the final solution to the problem! > > Something isn't covered! > I don't mean to be rude, but what I am getting out of the solutions > given by the two Mikes is a formula. > Jesus died for our sins, but I still do not see how his death > covers my separation from God. > Where's the connection between Jesus and us. What is the bottom > line. > I see a formula to believe in, but there's something between > believing Jesus died for our sins and the action that saves us. > And then how, just believing in Jesus as our personal savior, > brings us to God. There's a lot missing here. > Or am I looking deeper then is required? Is the bottom line > to just believe, and thats it? No, you are not looking deeper than is required. I am sad to say that according to scripture "belief" is *not* all there is to the gospel message. James wrote in his epistle, "...the demons also believe, and shudder." (Jas 2:19b) So we clearly see that belief is not the only prerequisite for salvation. James goes on in the very next verse to say, "But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow,that faith without works is useless?" and in verse 26 he also writes, "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead." I don't want to overstress this point. Scripture teaches that faith and works are necessary complements of each other. Faith is brought to reality by the works that it enables. In regards to your question, the saving action is summed up in Peter's words to the 3000+ he addressed on the day of pentecost. "Repent and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins..." (Acts 2:38a). The word repent is translated from the greek "metaneo" =~ "new understanding". I am not trained in biblical greek, or modern interpretive methods; however I understand this to mean that repentance means taking up a new understanding of how our actions affect our relationships with God first, and then with our fellow humans. Specifically, this requires an awareness of the reality of sin, its consequences, and our bondage to it apart from Christ. Secondly, it requires an awareness of Christ's sinless life, and His victorious resurrection. It is from the resurrection that we are able to appropriate (by faith) the ability to approach God, and walk "holy and blameless (without sin) before Him". (See Romans 6:the whole thing, and maybe 7&8 too.) Faith; however, is the cornerstone. For "without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarded of those who seek Him." (Heb 11:6) Without faith, (which is "the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things unseen"), all the activities of the above paragraph are merely useless mental exercises, leading to spiritual pride, licentiousness, and apostasy. However; with faith they are the first steps that lead to the gates of a "city on a hill", the New Jerusalem, which will be inhabited as a city without walls. I pray that you may enter ino that city. Richard Rush - Just another Jesus Freak in computer science decvax!cwruecmp!cwrudg!rush until we get connected to cbosgd All scripture quotations are from the New American Standard Bible