devonst@burdvax.UUCP (Tom Albrecht) (09/19/86)
ptl@cal-asd.UUCP (Mike Andrews) writes: >In article <998@tekcrl.UUCP> daveh@tekcrl.UUCP (Dave Hatcher) writes: >>... >> 1. What is the saving action? >> 2. What is saved? >> Dave Hatcher > >The saving action was done once by Jesus, making up for all sin, for all >time, for all peoples, by His Own sacrifice. ... I hate to get sidetracked from the issue at hand because it is very important, but, when you say that Jesus made up for all sin, for all time, for all people, what exactly do you mean? If Jesus paid for everyone's sin does that mean that everyone will go to heaven? If not, on what basis does God send people to hell? Why did Jesus have to die for the sins of someone who doesn't/won't believe in Him? Just Curious. -- Tom Albrecht "Reformata, semper reformanda"
pete@octopus.UUCP (09/23/86)
In article <2691@burdvax.UUCP> devonst@burdvax.UUCP (Tom Albrecht) writes: >I hate to get sidetracked from the issue at hand because it is very >important, but, when you say that Jesus made up for all sin, for all time, >for all people, what exactly do you mean? If Jesus paid for everyone's sin >does that mean that everyone will go to heaven? If not, on what basis does >God send people to hell? Why did Jesus have to die for the sins of someone >who doesn't/won't believe in Him? Jesus is literally God's gift to humanity. People go to hell because they do not accept that gift. Jesus didn't *have* to die for the sins of those who reject Him; He did it as a freely given gift, because God loves all of us, even those of us who reject Him. -- OOO __| ___ Peter Holzmann, Octopus Enterprises OOOOOOO___/ _______ USPS: 19611 La Mar Court, Cupertino, CA 95014 OOOOO \___/ UUCP: {hplabs!hpdsd,pyramid}!octopus!pete ___| \_____ Phone: 408/996-7746
cc@locus.ucla.edu (Oleg "Kill the bastards" Kiselev) (09/25/86)
In article <227@octopus.UUCP> pete@octopus.UUCP (Pete Holzmann) writes: >Jesus is literally God's gift to humanity. People go to hell because they do >not accept that gift. Jesus didn't *have* to die for the sins of those who >reject Him; He did it as a freely given gift, because God loves all of us, >even those of us who reject Him. Let me see if I got this straight. JC was a "free gift". Those who take this gift get a prize. Those who refuse this gift get severely punished. God, out of love, eternally torments those who refuse His gifts. This is quite warped, you know? May be the "junk mail" advertizers should use this method -- "Take this free gift or we will torch your house and kill your cat", and use Jhvh and JC as a divine excuse? And with Ranquist, Reagan and Meese running the show such defence could be considered valid... Oleg Kiselev, HASA "A" division
ptl@fluke.UUCP (Mike Andrews) (09/25/86)
Hi, In article <2691@burdvax.UUCP> devonst@burdvax.UUCP (Tom Albrecht) writes: >... I hate to get sidetracked from the issue at hand because it is very >important, but, when you say that Jesus made up for all sin, for all time, >for all people, what exactly do you mean? God loves all of His creation, whether the people He created choose to love Him or not. Look in scripture to see how Paul dealt with the same question - start by reading the 21 verses that make up Romans chapter 5. >If Jesus paid for everyone's sin >does that mean that everyone will go to heaven? No, our part in God's gift of salvation is to receive the gift. >If not, on what basis does >God send people to hell? I imagine we make up our own heaven or hell; and at the judgement time, God will let us live where we have chosen by how we lived our lives here. >Why did Jesus have to die for the sins of someone >who doesn't/won't believe in Him? >... Tom Albrecht He chose to, He didn't have to. That's how much He loves. God Bless, Mike Andrews
dnelson@joevax.UUCP (Dorothy Nelson) (09/25/86)
In article <> pete@octopus.UUCP (Pete Holzmann) writes: >In article <2691@burdvax.UUCP> devonst@burdvax.UUCP (Tom Albrecht) writes: >>I hate to get sidetracked from the issue at hand because it is very >>important, but, when you say that Jesus made up for all sin, for all time, >>for all people, what exactly do you mean? If Jesus paid for everyone's sin >>does that mean that everyone will go to heaven? If not, on what basis does >>God send people to hell? Why did Jesus have to die for the sins of someone >>who doesn't/won't believe in Him? > >Jesus is literally God's gift to humanity. People go to hell because they do >not accept that gift. What if they never have the chance to accept that gift? Do tribes or cultures who never hear of the Jesus solution also roast? A petty god, this would be, to so punish someone with the bad luck to be born in a certain part of the world. Nope. I get it. The Catholic solution. They go to purgatory. Or limbo. Right. I'm not trying to be sarcastic. But this is something that has always bothered me. >-- --cosmique muffin (dorothy)
devonst@burdvax.UUCP (Tom Albrecht) (09/30/86)
ptl@cal-asd.UUCP (Mike Andrews) writes: >In article <2691@burdvax.UUCP> devonst@burdvax.UUCP (Tom Albrecht) writes: >>... I hate to get sidetracked from the issue at hand because it is very >>important, but, when you say that Jesus made up for all sin, for all time, >>for all people, what exactly do you mean? > >God loves all of His creation, whether the people He created choose >to love Him or not. Look in scripture to see how Paul dealt with the >same question - start by reading the 21 verses that make up Romans chapter 5. > In Romans 5 it appears that Paul is writing to Christians about Christians and what Christ has done for us. I can't find any reference in these verses that says that Christ died for all men's sins. On the other hand, I do find verses like Psalm 5:5 where the writer declares, "The arrogant cannot stand in your presence; you hate all who do wrong." We also read in Romans 9 that Jacob was God's servant and that God loved Jacob but hated Esau. These verses point out the God is sovereign in choosing those who will come to faith in him. Just as Pharaoh was raised up for a purpose, so too the children of God receive His mercy as an act of His sovereign will and according to His purpose. Not because of anything we do, not because of any faith we are able to muster, but because it is the Father who has given us to Christ (John 10:29). >>If Jesus paid for everyone's sin >>does that mean that everyone will go to heaven? > >No, our part in God's gift of salvation is to receive the gift. > >>If not, on what basis does God send people to hell? > >I imagine we make up our own heaven or hell; and at the judgement time, >God will let us live where we have chosen by how we lived our lives here. > This sounds like rather fuzzy thinking to me. You didn't answer my question. If Christ has paid the penalty for all men's sins, on what basis is God justified in sending those who don't believe in Him to hell? It would seem to be unjust to require double payment for sin. I'm just looking for a little more precision. If Christ has paid for all men's sins, and you admit that some people are still going to hell, what exactly is the offense for which these people are being punished? Are they being punished for their sins? Was Christ also punished for their sins? Is this "double jeopardy"? >>Why did Jesus have to die for the sins of someone >>who doesn't/won't believe in Him? > >He chose to, He didn't have to. That's how much He loves. > >God Bless, > >Mike Andrews I agree that Christ freely chose to die for the sins of His people, but not for that sins of those who would reject Him. -- Tom Albrecht "Reformata, semper reformanda"
michael@slovax.UUCP (Michael Longe) (10/01/86)
> Do tribes or cultures who never hear of the Jesus solution also roast? > ... > --cosmique muffin (dorothy) An oft-asked question (in fact, even my mother once asked it). Very little info is available in the Bible regarding those who have not heard the opportunity to hear the Gospel. Paul mentions laws in each society, which are broken by the people in each society, in his letter to the Romans (Chapter 1? I don't have a Bible handy). As an aside, missionary agencies around the world are taking advantage of modern communication and transportation to bring the Gospel to all corners of the Earth. China and Africa particularly are experiencing widespread church growth. The "Great Commission" of the Bible is being carried out today. The best I can suggest to deal with questions like this which have no for-sure answers (God chose not to give his point of view), is to base the *action* of God upon the *character* of God. If the nature and personality of God is one of love, grace, redemption, as the Bible states, then it is probable that He has a plan for those people who have not heard the Gospel which is in keeping with that nature. In that case, what God will do for them may be even more glorious than what he has done for us! (It's His option.) If the nature of God is evil towards his creatures (an opinion voiced on this newsgroup), then it probably won't be any better for us than it will for those without the Gospel! The point of relevance is: will we, who have heard the Good News, respond to His call, or reject Him? "Each is told his own story..." Aslan, "The Chronicles of Narnia" Michael Longe' ..!tikal!slovax!michael ---- standard disclaimer --------------------------------------------------- Would my employers be surprised to discover I was a Christian? ---- usual disclaimer ------------------------------------------------------ Qui, moi?
ptl@fluke.UUCP (Mike Andrews) (10/01/86)
In article <287@joevax.UUCP> dnelson@joevax.UUCP (Dorothy Nelson) writes: >... Do tribes or cultures who never hear of the Jesus solution also roast? I doubt it - God is greater than any of us give Him credit for. I also believe He has ways of keeping His word with them too that Jesus is the only way. >... The Catholic solution. They go to purgatory. Or limbo. >... --cosmique muffin (dorothy) Limbo has never been official Roman Catholic church doctrine - check it out. God Bless, Mike Andrews (PTL)
harris@mit-caf.ARPA (Robert M. Harris) (10/02/86)
>I agree that Christ freely chose to die for the sins of His people, but not >for that sins of those who would reject Him. > As a High Church Anglican I really hate to resort to proof texting but this statement is inconsistent with Catholic (and Biblical) understanding of the saving action of the Cross. The proclaimation of the Cross is God's universal and steadfast faithful love of God for his whole Creation. (One could call this the Faith of God manifested in Christ). This is summed up quite well in 1 John 2:1,2: If any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the perfect offering for our sins, and not for ours only but the sins of the whole world. (Translation is from the American Book of Common Prayer, 1979 and is not protected by copyright.) >Tom Albrecht >"Reformata, semper reformanda" -------- Bob Harris I have been entrusted to you ever since I was born; you were my God when I was still in my mother's womb. Psalm 22:10
dnelson@joevax.UUCP (Dorothy Nelson) (10/02/86)
In article <> michael@slovax.UUCP (Michael Longe) writes: >> Do tribes or cultures who never hear of the Jesus solution also roast? >> ... >> --cosmique muffin (dorothy) > >The best I can suggest to deal with questions like this which have no >for-sure answers (God chose not to give his point of view), >is to base >the *action* of God upon the *character* of God. If the nature and >personality of God is one of love, grace, redemption, as the Bible >states, then it is probable that He has a plan for those people who >have not heard the Gospel which is in keeping with that nature. >In that case, what God will do for them may be even more glorious than >what he has done for us! (It's His option.) If the nature of God is >evil towards his creatures (an opinion voiced on this newsgroup), then >it probably won't be any better for us than it will for those without >the Gospel! > There is a third alternative to this scenario: He could be "righteous" just like scripture says, throw all who don't believe in Him in the pit regardless of their actions, and grant eternal bliss to those who do. "I am the Way the Truth and the Light, no one comes to the Father save through Me." I'm sure there are many Christians who would take exception to your interpretation (i.e. saved, even as unbelievers). >The point of relevance is: will we, who have heard the Good News, respond >to His call, or reject Him? > My problem with the Good News is that it has been used to justify a lot of Bad News. This came from loosely interpreting the Bible for selfish ends. I interpret the Bible in my own way, but there are many who say I will roast in Hell for it. *sigh* --cosmique muffin (dorothy) >"Each is told his own story..." Aslan, "The Chronicles of Narnia" "Frightened of him! Look at him! A long eared mope with a lionskin! No fear." "But that's just the imitation! We told you!" "And you've got a better imitation, I suppose?" *double sigh*
kiki@isieng.UUCP (Kiki Herbst) (10/03/86)
In article <181@slovax.UUCP> michael@slovax.UUCP (Michael Longe) writes: >> Do tribes or cultures who never hear of the Jesus solution also roast? >> ... >> --cosmique muffin (dorothy) > >An oft-asked question (in fact, even my mother once asked it). > >Very little info is available in the Bible regarding those who have >not heard the opportunity to hear the Gospel... > >The best I can suggest to deal with questions like this which have no >for-sure answers (God chose not to give his point of view), is to base >the *action* of God upon the *character* of God. If the nature and >personality of God is one of love, grace, redemption, as the Bible >states, then it is probable that He has a plan for those people who >have not heard the Gospel which is in keeping with that nature.. I agree with Michael's point here that God's nature is not such that he would do something unjust. He does love man and wants us to come to him. So he is not going to unfairly punish those who do not hear about Him. I disagree with the first part of this statement though because God clearly says in Romans (which I previously quoted) that man who does not hear the law will not be judged by the law. It goes on to say that we are not judged by whether or not we have the opportunity to hear about Jesus or the Bible, we are individually judged by the way we respond to God in our lives. For most of us, we have the opportunity to clearly read about God. We have benefits that others do not have. But still not many people care to find out about God or to follow the inner stirrings of God in their lives. > >Would my employers be surprised to discover I was a Christian? Would they? :-) Kiki
dnelson@joevax.UUCP (Dorothy Nelson) (10/03/86)
In article <998@tekcrl.UUCP> ptl@cal-asd.UUCP (Mike Andrews) writes: >In article <287@joevax.UUCP> dnelson@joevax.UUCP (Dorothy Nelson) writes: >>... Do tribes or cultures who never hear of the Jesus solution also roast? > >I doubt it - God is greater than any of us give Him credit for. I also >believe He has ways of keeping His word with them too that Jesus is the >only way. Perhaps through the religions they already possess? Bravo! In which case all are paths, and God will make our footing sure. Now I can stop having nightmares about those Chick Publications. > >>... The Catholic solution. They go to purgatory. Or limbo. > >Limbo has never been official Roman Catholic church doctrine - check it out. Well, that's another lie they fed me in second grade Catechism... *sigh* now all the infants who ain't been baptized have to stay with those naughty adults in purgatory... sheesh... > >God Bless, You too. thanks. --cosmique"I still have a glow in the dark plastic rosary somewhere"muffin
ptl@fluke.UUCP (10/06/86)
Hi, In article <2716@burdvax.UUCP> devonst@burdvax.UUCP (Tom Albrecht) writes: >...I agree that Christ freely chose to die for the sins of His people, but not >for that sins of those who would reject Him. >Tom Albrecht You and I see God differently. Jesus died for sinners. When a Christian sins, that sin is rejection of God; the same rejection as for someone who isn't Christian and rejects God. Sin isn't lessened by claiming to be Christian. It is by acting on our Christian faith, approaching God and asking for His forgiveness, that makes the difference. And it was only Jesus' self-sacrifice that makes up for our sins; nothing that we ourselves can do or say. God says to love our enemies. Someone who rejects you, even hates you, can qualify as an enemy. God wouldn't ask us to do what He hasn't already done; meaning He even loves His enemies. And He showed His love for sinners by dieing for sinners - no greater love. The God I believe in loves unconditionally. Jesus is the only way to the Father. And I believe God has ways that go beyond anything anyone else can come up with to save those who never had the opportunity to meet Jesus. And I'm not the judge, I'm not God, to determine who has and who hasn't had the opportunities, though sometimes I fall into that trap. All I can do is what Jesus says to do - love God with my whole being, and my neighbor like myself. Neighbor includes non-Christian and anti-Christian, as well as Christian. I am a sinner in need of God's forgiveness and mercy, I am also loved and forgiven by Him. It is not easy to believe much of the time; but how I feel doesn't affect what God says is truth. He died for me before I even knew Him, but He already knew me. And He did the same for everyone else, too. God Bless, Mike Andrews
ptl@fluke.UUCP (10/07/86)
This message is empty.