Physics:retief (07/29/82)
Some guy purdue!pur-ee!decvax!harpo!uwvax!doug wrote in with these questions.
Is not space-time just there? If we really do exist in a 4-dimensional
space-time then isn't some sort of determinism natural? It is not as though
we exist in "space" which is independent of "time". Are they not supposed
to be all of the same structure? How can we "move" from one point in
space-time to another? Move with reference to what? What is the "rate"
of the passage of time? dt/dt?
Well, Mr. purdue!pur-ee!decvax!harpo!uwvax!doug:
You ask a lot of questions!
The answers are found in any good book on special relativity.
Things like, there is a dt/dt only it's called dt/d(tau) where
tau is a 'proper' time measured in a 'proper' frame. A 'proper'
frame is not the "absolute" frame that the ether was supposed to
be but it is the next best thing. Space-time is a framework on which
events happen and these events (not space-time) affect the future.
Indeed, time is 'independent' of space, just like x is independent
of y or up is independent of horizontal. Movement in space-time
is measured with respect to any convenient 'spot' , but then again
never forget that everything is relative.
- D. Bartholomew -doug (07/30/82)
to: harpo!decvax!pur-ee!purdue!Physics:retief I wasn't referring to dt/d(tau). What I meant was this: people keep talking about "moving" through time, as though they were going some "place" (in space-time, I presume). Does this make sense? Are we, in fact, moving through space-time? If we ARE moving through space-time, with reference to WHAT are we moving? Doesn't special relativity actually say that we are NOT moving at all and that any point in space-time is not especially unique? Doesn't five minutes ago at this terminal exist at five minutes ago at this terminal? Isn't the structure of space-time static and just there? doug@uwisc
gaw@sri-unix (08/03/82)
It is my opinion that the ideas of space and time have been misconstrued.
You can move through space AND through time. The differences lie in whether
your perspective is physical or mental. I can move my physical body from
point A to point B, but it takes time. Instead of moving physically to point
B to see what it is like there, you may place yourself mentally at point B
and observe. Theoretically, this does not take any time, with space not
having any importance. I can imagine myself three feet away as easily as I
could place myself on the other side of the universe. Since we exist in
mental and physical worlds, we move through time AND space. Simple enough?
- doug (08/05/82)
re: existing in both the physical and "mental worlds" gaw@sri-unix says: "Since we exist in mental and physical worlds, we move through time AND space. Simple enough?" Simple enough. But surely he recognizes the former as more pertaining to metaphysics than reality. People can IMAGINE anything they like. Whether it is true or not is another matter!
doug (08/05/82)
Oh, and one more thing about gaw@sri-unix: His remarks reminded me of this old Doonesbury I saw where Duke is taking a "field trip to the frontal lobes." (I mean that in reference to the particular remarks, not the state of gaw's (?) mind!)
felix (08/06/82)
Now how do you *observe* something if you are not physically there? Maybe the observation is just a fragment of your imagination. "gaw" says ...I can move my physical body from point A to point B, but it takes time... I take this means time really exist since you are using it up. ...Theoretically, this does not take any time, with space not having any importance... I am not sure what he is trying to say here. Probably it means he can be anywhere at any time (???), so what? Does that mean time does not exist? ...Since we both exist in mental and physical worlds, we move through both space AND time... What's this? Whhat's a mental world? We move through both space and time *physiclly* anyway, and "gaw" admitted that space and time have no importance in mental world (whatever that is), what difference does that make? Regards, Felix Luk
gaw@sri-unix (08/10/82)
Yes, I agree that the term "mental worlds" conjurs up images of meta-
physics. And yes I agree that people can believe anything they like.
Which is what you obviously do. Even then you did not deny my statement.
The fact of the matter is that I did not base my opinion on just what
I BELIEVE! This information was derived by a body of knowledgeable people
drawing on all the experiences of the human kingdom! It was NOT made up
just because it sounded good, as you would have readers believe!
I re-affirm my position. Instead of dwelling on tangents of the
subject, everyone should concentrate on finding truths that work for the
whole universe. The truth that I stated will work for any rationally
thinking creature. For those of you who do not fall in that category,
I can still attempt to explain further.
"Flame Off" as they would say...gaw@sri-unix (08/10/82)
Just read another potshot at my first article in regards to its' "spaciness" content. And I can understand why. Peolple in this society are not taught to think above the ground level at which their physical bodies exist. I am only hoping to raise some readers levels of thought by submitting enough articles to the net. I then am relying on the chain reaction principle, i.e. that those people will go out and lift some other peoples thoughts, with the ultimate goal being that all thinking creatures thoughts have been elevated to their maximum. (Can you hear the "Twilight Zone" music in the background?) Too bad if you can't join me though. The wine is an excellent vintage! P.S. If my "field trip" is to the frontal lobes, I wonder where that other guy is tripping to? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
gaw@sri-unix (08/10/82)
I am truly flattered to see so many responses addressed to me regarding
my original article. It's too bad that it seems I didn't get the message
across so well. Reading Felixs' article gave me some food for thought and
showed me a crack in my original statement.
I made an error when I said that time and space have no importance to
our conscious existence. They do. What I meant to say was that they do not
impede our spirits. Note: "spirits","conscious existenceP'",and "mental world"
are all terms relating to the BASIC idea of 'I think, therefore I am'.
I could ponder all day on wether time really exists or is it just a
figment of my imagination. But then I would be no further along then I was
at the beginning of the day. So I settle on the fact that EVERYTHING exists.
I am free to judge how much relevance something has as compared to something
else, but I know that I will not have reached a perfect truth until it has
EVERYTHING in it.
I hope that some more awareness has been unearthed.
Food for thought: If God(Jesus), Buddha, and Mohammed were in the same room
together, they would not disagree on a single thing.