vantreeck@logic.DEC (05/06/85)
I work for Digital Equip. Corp. as a software engineer. I have been
told by my manager, who has consulted with the DEC's legal department, that
DEC owns all software that I develop at home on my MAC. And DEC has forbidden
me to put any of my software on the ENET or any other net. I guess this means
no free MAC software from DEC employees, and very likely no MAC software from
DEC employess period!
I was just curious what other companies' policies were on this issue.
I would like to hear from employees from other companies. And I would like
to hear the opinions of other DEC employees as well.
George Van Treeck
AI Technology Group
Digital Equip. Corp.ward@hao.UUCP (Mike Ward) (05/07/85)
> > I work for Digital Equip. Corp. as a software engineer. I have been > told by my manager, who has consulted with the DEC's legal department, that > DEC owns all software that I develop at home on my MAC. Unless you specifically signed an agreement giving away your rights to software you develop on your own time, DEC does not own it. Even if you did sign such an agreement, it probably has no legal standing (contracts we don't sign seem to be worth a lot more than contracts we do). I seem to remember reading about several cases where agreements like this have been tossed out. Of course there's the moral issue, if you freely agreed. All of the above must be considered in the light of the hassle of trying to convince a major corporation that you are not its slave.
brad@gcc-bill.ARPA (Brad Parker) (05/07/85)
In article <2024@decwrl.UUCP> vantreeck@logic.DEC writes: >...told by my manager, who has consulted with the DEC's legal department, that >DEC owns all software that I develop at home on my MAC. And DEC has forbidden >me to put any of my software on the ENET or any other net... > George Van Treeck > Digital Equip. Corp. If you own the mac, and develope the software at home, and it has nothing to do with your work (as far as ideas), I do believe that your employer has no right to the software. If they own the mac, well, you owe them for the use of the machine, but I still think the software is yours. As for other companies, I'd reconcider the "nature of my relationship" with an employee who told me my home software was his. I'd probably also call his bluff (but then, that's me...) -- J Bradford Parker uucp: seismo!harvard!gcc-bill!brad "She said you know how to spell AUDACIOUSLY? I could tell I was in love... You want to go to heaven? or would you rather not be saved?" - Lloyd Coal
seth@ucla-cs.UUCP (05/08/85)
I don't see how they can hold you to this. Did they buy your Mac for you? What you do at home on your own time is your business. I suppose they do have the right to control what you post to the ENET but if you connected to COMPUSERVE from home or something like that I can't see how they can object. I'd be interested in hearing from any lawyers out there on this topic. My personal impression is that this is some kind of adhesion contract and probably unenforceable. This might be true even if it was mentioned in your employment contract. Any legal eagles out there?
fnf@unisoft.UUCP (Fred Fish) (05/09/85)
From George Van Treeck @ AI Technology Group, Digital Equip Corp. > I work for Digital Equip. Corp. as a software engineer. I have been > told by my manager, who has consulted with the DEC's legal department, that > DEC owns all software that I develop at home on my MAC. ... Not being a lawyer take all the following with a huge grain of salt ... My understanding of the situation is that unless they can show that you used any of their hardware or software resouces, or that your product was something that you could reasonably be expected to produce as a part of your employment, you can tell them to go fly a kite. I.E. if you are an applications programming doing Fortran development at DEC and you write a game for your MAC from scratch, using none of their proprietary code or algorithms, then you are probably safe. But if you are a compiler developer doing development work on their VMS compiler and you decide to implement a MAC compiler on the side, you might have some problems. Naturally, talk to a lawyer if this is important enough to you. Here in California there are very explicit laws about what claims an employer has to an employee's intellectual property, regardless of any employment contracts you may have been required to sign. -Fred
royt@gitpyr.UUCP (Roy M. Turner) (05/09/85)
Well, I don't know what their policies are now, but when I worked
for IBM about 4 years ago, their policies about home developed
software were basically the same as DEC's...nice to know that big
blue isn't the only paranoid company in the world! :-)
The reason they gave us was that although IBM had no interest in
microcomputer software (as I said, this has been a while ago!), still
your programs might reflect techniques learned while working for IBM.
Yeah, if what you're thinking is what I think you're thinking, that
was my opinion, too...*MOOO!*
Again, this was some time ago, so IBM's policies might have changed...
I know they were encouraging employees to write software for the PC
when it came out, but then, that is a tad different!
Roy
--
The above opinions aren't necessarily those of etc, etc...but they
should be!!
Roy Turner
(a transplanted Kentucky hillbilly)
School of Information and Computer Science
Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
...!{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!roytgoran@erix.UUCP (Goeran Baage) (05/09/85)
In article <2024@decwrl.UUCP> vantreeck@logic.DEC writes: > > I work for Digital Equip. Corp. as a software engineer. I have been >told by my manager, who has consulted with the DEC's legal department, that >DEC owns all software that I develop at home on my MAC. And DEC has forbidden >me to put any of my software on the ENET or any other net. I guess this means >no free MAC software from DEC employees, and very likely no MAC software from >DEC employess period! > Is this really true or is it a joke? It seems very strange to me that DEC has any rights to things you develop at home (I assume it is your own MAC). Are you slaves over there? US, the land of freedom ?????? I havn't checked with our legal departement at ERICSSON and I don't intend to, but I am fairly shure that ERICSSON has no rights to things I develop in my own free time. Goeran Baage PS If you "develop" children at home, are they owned by DEC? :-)
clewis@mnetor.UUCP (Chris Lewis) (05/10/85)
In article <255@gcc-bill.ARPA> brad@gcc-bill.UUCP (Brad Parker) writes: >In article <2024@decwrl.UUCP> vantreeck@logic.DEC writes: >>...told by my manager, who has consulted with the DEC's legal department, that >>DEC owns all software that I develop at home on my MAC. And DEC has forbidden >>me to put any of my software on the ENET or any other net... >If you own the mac, and develope the software at home, and it has nothing >to do with your work (as far as ideas), I do believe that your employer >has no right to the software. If they own the mac, well, you owe them for >the use of the machine, but I still think the software is yours. Some major companies don't think that way (IBM, Philips) and some Universities. IBM, for example, has a hiring requirement that you sign a paper transferring all rights to anything that you develop that could possibly be used by or compete with IBM while you are working for IBM. So, even if you have your own PC, and you write a nifty new program on your own time at home, IBM has the ability (and I believe that there are test cases to prove it) to prevent you from distributing/marketting it. In fact, they have the right to take it from you and market it themselves. They will *usually* pay you a royalty. Only just recently has a department been set up in IBM to determine whether they want or would be hurt competitively by an employee's piece of software, and if they determine "no" to both, they *might* let you market it on your own. In addition, all software written either at home or at work must carry the logo "For IBM Internal Use Only" if it is sent around on the IBM internal network. While I was at IBM there was a lot of traffic on the net about whether the "vetting" process ever did allow employees to market something on their own. (The answer was yes, but the vetting process seemed to take about 4 months minimum). When you are hired, you also have to specify any possible prior conflict of interest. The basis for all this is the assumption that you took advantage of inside knowledge gained whilst in employment with IBM - and that knowledge is the property of IBM. I have had personal contact with the practises of Philips (or, at least a wholey-owned subsidiary). Several friends and I were trying to design a "nifty new computer". After this design effort started, one of my friends went to work for Philips. He mentioned to someone about the project, and immediately the company proceeded to try to get him to sign over all rights to it (up to and including a VP). The only way that this crap was stopped short of legal action was the fact that Philips could not possibly impose this on the people in our project that were not employed by them (and I believe that our friend did disclose this possible conflict to the Philips personnel dept.). The University of Toronto has similar clauses in their student "laws" - which aren't on the forms that you sign. Most people at U of T follow these laws. I suspect that most other Universities have the same rules. -- Chris Lewis, UUCP: {allegra, linus, ihnp4}!utzoo!mnetor!clewis BELL: (416)-475-8980 ext. 321
vantreeck@logic.DEC (05/10/85)
I have recieved a huge number of responses over the net giving various opinions on the subject of what rights does Digital have to my home developed, MAC software. The responses basically fell into two catagories: 1) "That's pretty much how it is at my company also.", and 2) indignation that a company might try to claim rights to something that they gave no compensation to develop, nor assistance to develop, nor had anything to do with what I was 'hired to invent'. My employment contract (and my ethics) required me to inform my employer of any plans to develop anything outside of Digital. My manager and I get along great. He was just doing what his job required him to do, which was check with the legal department, personnel policies and procedures, and upper level management. The voice came back loud and clear from all quarters - "Make a choice between being an entrepreneur or working at Digital.". Fortunately, none of these people have the power to enforce this thinking. Digital has a special committee which has the sole power to make official decisions about what is a conflict of interest. I have appealed to this committee and should have their response in about one month. My manager has even critiqued my letter to the committee so that I could communicate my points more clearly. I'm glad that Digital had the thoughtfulness to have a program in place that helps to prevent unjustices do to the kneejerk responses of a corporate giant. I've been working for Digital nearly five years. The company has been good to me. And I don't intend to do anything that would hurt the company. I'll post the results of the committee's decision in net.micro.mac. George Van Treeck AI Tech. Group Digital Equip. Corp.
chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) (05/11/85)
In article <1521@hao.UUCP> ward@hao.UUCP (Mike Ward) writes: >> >> I work for Digital Equip. Corp. as a software engineer. I have been >> told by my manager, who has consulted with the DEC's legal department, that >> DEC owns all software that I develop at home on my MAC. > >Unless you specifically signed an agreement giving away your >rights to software you develop on your own time, DEC does not >own it. Even if you did sign such an agreement, it probably >has no legal standing (contracts we don't sign seem to be worth >a lot more than contracts we do). I seem to remember reading >about several cases where agreements like this have been tossed >out. Of course there's the moral issue, if you freely agreed. A lot of companies, unfortunately, DO have you sign your life away when you go on board with them. I on one occasion refused to interview with a firm (much less hire on) when I saw their proprietary rights document. Don't assume that they can't enforce it -- chances are that if you don't use company time, company resourcs or proprietary knowledge that they can't make it stick, but either way they CAN make it expensive if they decide to push the issue. Talk to your supervisor. Better yet, talk to Legal and get a clarification. Find out exactly what they do or don't own, and make sure they understand your situation so they can make an intelligent decision. Make sure you get it in writing, of course, and in your private files (and, if possible, the company files). If you can't come to an agreement, make sure you are on record as being unhappy with the situation, perhaps to the point of bitching to the higher mucky mucks (like Ken Olson, perhaps) about the situation. If you REALLY feed like you can't live with it, you can attempt to negotiate a special arrangement on things. If the company values you, they should be willing to come up with a compromise. If not, you're going to have to either back down or play the bluff and change jobs. What you should NOT do is ignore the situation. If they find out and decide to pursue things, it can get really nasty, and you want to avoid it. If the proprietary rights agreement really does own your firstborn programmed child, then you SHOULD bitch, because it might give them the idea that this is something to be changed... Come to think of it, everyone under one of these silly clauses should bitch, whether or not it really applies to them... -- :From the offices of Pagans for Cthulhu: Chuq Von Rospach {cbosgd,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA Who shall forgive the unrepentant?
pugh@cornell.UUCP (William Pugh) (05/12/85)
Just to show how widespread this is, I will mention that this was also the policy at Texas Instruments when I worked for them 2 years ago. (I don't know if that policy is still in effect). Bill Pugh Cornell University
davet@oakhill.UUCP (Dave Trissel) (05/12/85)
In article <2691@nsc.UUCP> chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes: > >A lot of companies, unfortunately, DO have you sign your life away when you >go on board with them. ... True. I was so green after working for two state governments that when I joined Motorola (my first private company) it didn't dawn on me that I had any other choice but to sign the agreement. Turns out if you make a stink when they hire you you can significantly alter it before you sign it. > >What you should NOT do is ignore the situation. .... In my case though this was the correct thing to do. Word got around that I was writing a chess program. A corporate lawyer called the boss claiming not only that he had talked to me (a lie) but that the company owned the program. My boss and his boss and his boss all agreed they would back me since Motorola certainly is not in the business of entering chess tournaments and they realized the irony that my chess program could win a lot of recognition for Motorola's microprocessors. They just told me to be discrete about it. I don't have the exact wording but my aggreement says something to the effect that Motorola owns anything which "is in the current or future business interest of Motorola" even if done on my own time at home. The trouble is, this open-ended statement could mean that if I milked cows on my own time and since Motorola runs its own food works I would therefore be doing something "in the business interest of Motorola." Pretty big hole. By the way, even though I'm a software person I work in the division which designs and builds chips. If I worked in our software division (in Arizona) then I would be standing on much weaker ground, but I would still insist that a chess program (computer games) is not at all in Motorola's business interest. > .... If the >proprietary rights agreement really does own your firstborn programmed >child, then you SHOULD bitch, because it might give them the idea that this >is something to be changed... Come to think of it, everyone under one of >these silly clauses should bitch, whether or not it really applies to >them... This is close to what finally happened. This lawyer had a meeting with several programmers in the design group who frankly told him that if Motorola was going to go around treating its employees like children the company would soon not have any good programmers. They also stated that what was done at home on their own time that was not related to their job and done without company equipment was none of the company's beeswax. As far as I know, the lawyer went back to his cave and for the last 2.5 years nothing has happened and everybody's happy. By the way, I consider that this mess was caused only because the lawyer had nothing better to do at the time to justify his salary and I think that he did/does not represent Motorola's attitude toward outside employee relationships. And our lawyers seem so behind in their work today that I doubt there will ever be any spare time for goofing off like this in the future. While I'm on the subject, Motorola's president Bob Galvin has a walk-in policy for any employee. I have no doubt that I could have used this method to resolve the situation as well. Dave Trissel Motorola Semiconductor, Austin {ihnp4,seismo,gatech}!ut-sally!oakhill!davet
earlw@pesnta.UUCP (Earl Wallace ) (05/12/85)
In my opinion, I would think DEC doesn't really believe it has any rights to your MAC software on your own machine. If you were using a MAC provided by the company, that might be a different matter since most companies think you develop programs on company time, take them home and try to sell them. If DEC has a super-secret project (he-he) using the MAC (or a look alike), they may be worried about losing control of some software that could be used for the project. The saddest part about our life today is that you can be right or wrong, but the side with the largest pocketbook will win every time.
23403091@sdcc3.UUCP (23403091) (05/14/85)
In article <1662@cornell.UUCP> pugh@gvax.UUCP (William Pugh) writes: > > Just to show how widespread this is, I will mention that this was > also the policy at Texas Instruments when I worked for them 2 years ago. > (I don't know if that policy is still in effect). > Bill Pugh > Cornell University Widespread isn't the word. ----- On one of my entrance forms for the University of California, I was "warned" in very small (~6 point type) about the wonderful "If you develop it here, it belongs to us" rule. That doesn't bother me, 'cause I can get around that. What bothered me was it appeared on a paper that had nothing to do with anything of that nature. (Like a medical history or housing form. Unfortunatly, it was the one I didn't xerox. Oh well hindsight being what it is...) Has anyone else seen this type of thing done elsewhere? -- -Jim Hayes {ucbvax, ihnp4, (you get the idea)}!sdcsvax!sdcc3!23403091 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From the Elegant Electrifying Cavern Society (EECS) of UCSD... Wait! I have a Physics midterm.... WHAT THE URRY AM I DOING HERE? :=() -----------------------------------------------------------------------