darryl@ISM780.UUCP (07/02/85)
Is anybody out there using NEON! ? I just purchased it the other day, and so far it seems to be a very complete development package (but I haven't really tried very much yet). Basically, NEON! is a forth system with enough words to build a smalltalk-like environment. It comes with one disk, that is NOT write protected, and a manual. Kriya Systems (developers of NEON!) say that you can sell your created applications royalty-free. The manual has several hundred pages and the type is rather small. The first part of the manual is a tutorial. It starts off very simple (which is good for a forth neophyte like me), but quickly gets into macros, classes, and objects. None of the tutorials left me hanging, but there is still a fair amount (for an object-oriented neophyte like me) that goes unsaid about the smalltalk environment. The reference sections of the manual are perhaps slightly terser than the Unix Programmer's Manual, but at least every word has its own entry. But just like Unix, it's hard to find something if you don't know that it exists (or what it's called). There are sections that describe the (very interesting) implementation of classes, objects, methods, and ivars, but (again for a neophyte like me) they are very arcane. I usually understand what they were trying to tell me in one of these sections after I have, by hook or by crook, fixed a bug related to the implementation described therein. Unfortunately, debugging is not as well aided as I had hoped it would be. I often crash the system in obscure ways (once I tried to write "new: self" inside of a new: method definition). But because of the tendency to write *VERY* short methods, errors are usually *VERY* localized, and therefore easy to figure out (the fix to the above problem was to say "new: super", which did not recurse through all of memory). All the same, I am very pleased with the system so far, partly because it is yeilding to my attempts to figure it out, and also because, even saddled with my learning curve, I was able to create a window on the screen on my first try. The system is very modular -- bring in only those classes you need. If their class is too general, or not general enough, write your own -- they supply the sources to all of the classes except some basic ones like Int or Var. Appearantly (I haven't checked this out completely) all of the toolbox routines can be invoked with whatever parameters you'd like to supply. Kriya supplies a version of the MockWrite editor, which you use as a DA while working with their interpretter. Generally, the prefered modus operandi is to write some code with the editor, save it in a file just-in-case, copy it and paste it into the interpretter, and see what happens. If there's any interest, I'll post my feelings about it when I have actually done something with NEON!. Unfortunately, that's not likely to be very soon because my employers have me slaving away, trying to set computing back years with another 80286 project. SIGH. --Darryl Richman, INTERACTIVE Systems Corp. ...!cca!ima!ism780!darryl The views expressed above are my opinions only.
liberte@uiucdcs.Uiuc.ARPA (07/12/85)
I found NEON to be, unfortunately, very FORTH-like. I have developed an abhorance for unreadable syntax. I think my first project will be developing infix fixes of a general nature. But if you want to do tricky things with the dictionary, you need extra documentation which costs extra. I had nothing but an evening of crashes while trying to use NEON with RAMdisk or Switcher. Groan and moan... Seems that it requires the whole system to be in one place so you cannot split off NEON from its loadable classes. Somehow, it busted (made unloadable) my copy of the software during a crash, but I wasnt even writing anything. Nothing in the manual that I could find told how to reference files on alternate volumes. Opening the editor desk accessory twice causes an infinite stream of bombs. Many errors that would crash other systems are caught and reported by NEON, but the display is generally a mess - menus are left inverted, it writes in the wrong windows sometimes, prompts are not always given, etc. And there is no floating point yet. Dont wouldnt worry if you missed the promotional period. Dan LaLiberte liberte@uiucdcs.Uiuc.ARPA ihnp4!uiucdcs!liberte
olson@lasspvax.UUCP (Todd Olson) (07/22/85)
I'm interested in what people think of NEON! since the ads don't really say anything. I've phoned Kriya and questioned them about NEON! and asked them to send me something on it (which I haven't received yet). My biggest question is, did they do a decent job implementing what ever they implemented? I've been using MacForth but have gotten a little tired of the sloppyness of some parts of their implementation. Is NEON! any better? If not, I'll save my money and (try) to write my own system/language from scratch. Todd Olson -----------