custead@sask.UUCP (Der cuss) (07/17/85)
Finder 4.1 has some excellent improvements over 1.1g. The shutdown command is one example. Another is that dragging a disk icon to the trash ejects the disk and memory of it. Unfortunately dragging the system disk to the trash produces the message: "Can't throw away the image of the startup disk." I suggest that dragging the system disk to the trash should cause a shutdown and reset. This is an obvious extension to what happens when other disks are dragged to the trash, and is the only reasonable interpretation for dragging the system disk to the trash. It also gives a meaning to a currently undefined operation, and avoids a menu selection operation. The only objection to this is that it would cause other disks to be ejected even though they were not explicitly selected. I can live with this. L. R. Custead Univ of Sask ihnp4!sask!custead
dubois@uwmacc.UUCP (Paul DuBois) (07/22/85)
> Unfortunately dragging the system disk to the trash > produces the message: > "Can't throw away the image of the startup disk." > > I suggest that dragging the system disk to the trash > should cause a shutdown and reset. > This is an obvious extension to what happens when other > disks are dragged to the trash, and is the only reasonable > interpretation for dragging the system disk to the trash. > It also gives a meaning to a currently undefined operation, and > avoids a menu selection operation. I disagree. Another reason to toss the startup disk is that when you want to backup the disk in the other drive, you put the disk to backup onto in the drive with the startup disk. It would be convenient if tossing the startup disk acted just the same as other disks. To do the copy described above, you have to select the startup disk, then select "Eject" from the menu. A small annoyance, but still annoyance. I agree, however, that the new finder is much nicer. Particularly since you don't have to use it, with the advent of the minifinder. -- | Paul DuBois {allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!dubois --+-- | "More agonizing, less organizing." |
dennisg@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Dennis E. Griesser) (07/26/85)
In article <251@sask.UUCP> custead@sask.UUCP (Der cuss) writes: >I suggest that dragging the system disk to the trash >should cause a shutdown and reset. >This is an obvious extension to what happens when other >disks are dragged to the trash, and is the only reasonable >interpretation for dragging the system disk to the trash. >It also gives a meaning to a currently undefined operation, and >avoids a menu selection operation. > >The only objection to this is that it would cause other >disks to be ejected even though they were not explicitly >selected. I can live with this. I can't! Apple, please don't do this... A shutdown does a lot of drastic things and does them in an irreversible way. Suppose that I have a couple of newly created files in a RAM-disk. Shutting down the system will attempt to eject the RAM-disk (which should not work if the RAM-disk software was written properly). Then the Mac resets itself and the RAM-disk contents are lost anyway! This would be especially galling if the user had forgotten which disk was the startup (or Mac haad changed its mind about which is the startup) and figured that this one was "safe". Then again, the Finder likes to put the startup in the upper right corner, so if you never move disks around... naah. Granted, a system shutdown is a reasonable thing to infer from throwing away the startup. BUT drastic measures should never be selected by inference. Now, if Apple wants to put a "shutdown&reset" button on the dialog box for "can't toss startup", that would be OK by me.
jss@sjuvax.UUCP (J. Shapiro) (07/26/85)
> > Unfortunately dragging the system disk to the trash > > produces the message: > > "Can't throw away the image of the startup disk." > > > >... My understanding of this is that the Mac wants the startup disk on the assumption that it will soon need resources not presently in memory to do such things as find standard icons, etc. If you eject the main disk, and make the Mac forget about it, then not only doesn't the mac have this stuff, but it has no idea where to find it. The insistance on the startup disk is pretty well hard coded into the system. I suspect there is no particularly good way to avoid it. If you have a fat mac, find one of the RamDisk programs which makes the ram- disk your startup disk, and watch the sparks (and the mac) fly. Contrary to popular opinion, the bounding factor on a typical application's speed on the Mac is not adequate memory. It is adequate disk speed. Jon Shapiro Haverford College
nathan@reed.UUCP (Nathan Wilson) (08/05/85)
> >I suggest that dragging the system disk to the trash > >should cause a shutdown and reset. > >The only objection to this is that it would cause other > >disks to be ejected even though they were not explicitly > >selected. I can live with this. > > I can't! Apple, please don't do this... > > A shutdown does a lot of drastic things and does them in an irreversible > way. Suppose that I have a couple of newly created files in a RAM-disk. The other possiblity would be to make the Mac look around for the next most available system and finder and switch over to them. If one isn't around it could post the "You can't do that" alert or a "This will cause a shuttdown." with an Ok and Cancel button (please with the Ok the default). I know this is possible because you can switch to a different system and finder by double clicking the new finder while holding down the option and flower keys. If fact it would be nice if there was an actual 'make this disk the startup' function rather that requiring that a person go snooping into the depths on their system folders to find the finder icon. The nice thing about this solution is that it leaves any RAM disk untouched but no longer the startup disk so you can replace the system and finder on it and other such joys without changing the disk that the RAM disk was created from. -Nathan Wilson "I don't know what you want, but I will try to help you if I have to go to the east of east and fight the wild wereworms in the last desert."
dennisg@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Dennis E. Griesser) (08/06/85)
In article <1771@reed.UUCP> nathan@reed.UUCP (Nathan Wilson) writes: >holding down the option and flower keys. If fact it would be nice if >there was an actual 'make this disk the startup' function rather that >requiring that a person go snooping into the depths on their system >folders to find the finder icon. The nice thing about this solution is I second that motion! In fact, this could be another action triggered by the existing "set startup" item in the Finder's menu: If an application is selected, "set startup" makes it the application that runs at startup time. If a DISK is selected, "set startup" makes it the startup disk. How about it, Apple?
sparker@aero.ARPA (Steve Parker ) (08/06/85)
[ouch] In article <1771@reed.UUCP> nathan@reed.UUCP (Nathan Wilson) writes: >> >I suggest that dragging the system disk to the trash >> >should cause a shutdown and reset. >> >The only objection to this is that it would cause other >> >disks to be ejected even though they were not explicitly >> >selected. I can live with this. >> I can't! Apple, please don't do this... >> >> A shutdown does a lot of drastic things and does them in an irreversible >> way. Suppose that I have a couple of newly created files in a RAM-disk. >The other possiblity would be to make the Mac look around for the next >most available system and finder and switch over to them. If one isn't >around it could post the "You can't do that" alert or a "This will >cause a shuttdown." with an Ok and Cancel button (please with the >Ok the default). I know this is possible because you can switch to a >different system and finder by double clicking the new finder while >holding down the option and flower keys. If fact it would be nice if >there was an actual 'make this disk the startup' function rather that >requiring that a person go snooping into the depths on their system >folders to find the finder icon. The nice thing about this solution is >that it leaves any RAM disk untouched but no longer the startup disk >so you can replace the system and finder on it and other such joys >without changing the disk that the RAM disk was created from. Why can't <option><command> double-click on a DISK icon make that disk the start-up??[is apple listening?]. This is not much different than the finder switch mentioned above; and is not as dangerous as letting the Mac handle it itself. By the way, Apple, don't do anything like make shutdown a default. You guys did a good job of making the Mac relatively safe; without introducing ways to accidently shut down the system. Besides, there is the shut-down command in the new finder anyways. Also, there does exist a 1K program that changes the startup disk. Launching this application causes the startup disk to change to the other disk drive, if possible. I don't know much in the way of details about it. -- _______ |/-----\| Chris Warack (213) 648-6617 ||hello|| || || warack@aerospace.ARPA |-------| warack@aero.UUCP |@ ___ | seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!ittatc!dcdwest! |_______| sdcsvax!sdcrdcf!trwrb!trwrba!aero!warack || || \ Aerospace Corporation, M1-117, El Segundo, CA 90245 ^^^ ^^^ `---------(|=
maddog@tolerant.UUCP (Bill Arnett) (08/07/85)
> If fact it would be nice if > there was an actual 'make this disk the startup' function rather that > requiring that a person go snooping into the depths on their system > folders to find the finder icon. > > -Nathan Wilson Right! I've often wondered why such a function was not included in the Special menu. It would remove a lot of confusion if there were a simple, straight-forward way to switch startup disks. Of course, there will be some naming confusion with respect to the current "make startup" item. Is it ok for a single menu item to do different (but sort of related) things depending on whether a disk or an application is selected? -- Bill Arnett {ucbvax}!tolerant!maddog Tolerant Systems, Inc. San Jose 408/946-5667
frankk@mcvax.UUCP (Frank Kuiper) (08/07/85)
In article <1771@reed.UUCP> (Nathan Wilson) writes: >> >I suggest that dragging the system disk to the trash >> >should cause a shutdown and reset. >> >The only objection to this is that it would cause other >> >disks to be ejected even though they were not explicitly >> >selected. I can live with this. >> I can't! Apple, please don't do this... >> >> A shutdown does a lot of drastic things and does them in an irreversible >> way. Suppose that I have a couple of newly created files in a RAM-disk. >The other possiblity would be to make the Mac look around for the next >most available system and finder and switch over to them. If one isn't >around it could post the "You can't do that" alert or a "This will >cause a shuttdown." with an Ok and Cancel button (please with the >Ok the default). To my view, all what dragging the startup disk to the trash should do is just eject the disk! I don't want any complex things to happen. If you want another disk to become your new startup disk, why not make a Desk Accessary which could do the job. It could do more fancy things as well, like a shutdown and ejecting all disks. -- Frank ___ Frank Kuiper, CWI, Amsterdam. _][__| | ...{decvax,philabs,seismo,okstate,garfield}!mcvax!frankk <_______|-1 Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch. O-O-O
nathan@reed.UUCP (Nathan Wilson) (08/12/85)
> To my view, all what dragging the startup disk to the trash should do is > just eject the disk! I don't want any complex things to happen. If you > Frank My interpretation of "trashing" a disk is that is it both ejects the disk and FORGETS about it. This is extremely useful since I can remember times when the mac suddenly comes up with that annoying dialog box (with no cancel) that says "please insert the disk: Long Gone" or the disk that I looked at on another machine a move a folder window. There's another suggestion. Why not have a "not available" button on the "please insert disk: ^0" dialog. This would actually make the VolumeName:FileName syntax generally usable since if you tried to write to a Volume that doesn't exist you could cancel it. The only problem I see is during those painful multidisk swaps that usually only happen on a 128k machine (yes, Apple they do still exist). However, it seems like it would be possible to have another dialog in memory that would have a "continue" and an "abort" button to do the obvious thing. This would also reduce the punishment for the simple error of ejecting the wrong disk when your copying a large file, or other such operations. -Nathan Wilson
bhyde@inmet.UUCP (08/13/85)
Lets have a little sympathy for the unbelievable complexity of
designing a finder that can be used by people that know nothing
of computers. With less than twenty minutes the of casual training
that a computer store salesman provides most people have a sufficent
fluency.
I suspect that religous wars were fought over the adding of
a shut-down command to the finder. Adding another command to
the finder substantailly increases it's apparent complexity.
Having a disk eject when it is draged into the trash is a bad
idea. It scares the user if disks can go into the trash at all,
having the machine spit the disk out only makes him think that his
worse fear is true, i.e. it erased the disk.
Before getting all fired up about how some command ought to be
part of the finder think about how many commands need to be part
of the finder. The finder is a shell, it should be capable to all
the things any modern high quality shell can do; scripts, params,
all the operations in the common (useful) desk acc., etc. etc.
The present finder's principal design goal seems to have been
novice user accessablity. That's a wonderful first pass goal.
Adding in the power of a unix shell is going to be an amazingly
hard thing to do. Putting in this and that (like a set startup
disk command and the mini-finder) into the finder isn't the route
and will only assure a mess results.
ben hyde, cambridgejww@sdcsvax.UUCP (Joel West) (08/16/85)
> Lets have a little sympathy for the unbelievable complexity of > designing a finder that can be used by people that know nothing > of computers. With less than twenty minutes the of casual training > that a computer store salesman provides most people have a sufficent > fluency. Given the recent computer salesmen I've seen, this is almost a necessity. How many really know what they're talking about? 20%? 10%? > Having a disk eject when it is draged into the trash is a bad > idea. It scares the user if disks can go into the trash at all, > having the machine spit the disk out only makes him think that his > worse fear is true, i.e. it erased the disk. This is the one thing I really wanted on the old 1.1 finder, is what's the easy way to not only eject but forget a disk, quickly. if you use the machine a lot you'll really need it. On the other hand, it is a 2nd-level abstraction. Joel West CACI, Inc. - Federal (c/o UC San Diego) {ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4}!sdcsvax!jww jww@SDCSVAX.ARPA
paul@fcstools.UUCP (Paul Perkins) (08/17/85)
> "Having the disk eject when you drag it to the trash is a bad idea > because it scares the user". I strongly disagree with this point, and with the idea that one can/should try to predict by introspection what will "scare" the inexperienced user. If the user is in a mood to be scared, anything the machine does is likely to scare him/her the first time it happens. Does that mean the computer should never do anything? Of course not. This reminds me of all those keyboards (Mac included) which lack an "escape" key, supposedly because it would somehow "scare" non-computer people. -- Paul Perkins (somewhere in NetLand) "They're coming in the morning with a truck to take me home."
barmar@mit-eddie.UUCP (Barry Margolin) (08/18/85)
In article <1792@reed.UUCP> nathan@reed.UUCP (Nathan Wilson) writes: >There's another suggestion. Why not have a "not available" button on >the "please insert disk: ^0" dialog. I second this! We have two Macs sitting side-by-side at work, and sometimes a disk that was ejected from one machine is in use in the other when the first decides that the only thing it can think about is loading that disk. > This would actually make the >VolumeName:FileName syntax generally usable since if you tried >to write to a Volume that doesn't exist you could cancel it. My belief is that Apple is trying to phase that out, not make it "generally usable." > The >only problem I see is during those painful multidisk swaps that >usually only happen on a 128k machine (yes, Apple they do still >exist). Hear, hear! They can get VERY annoying when using the Switcher (especially if you accidentally configure the task's memory size too small). There is nothing worse than a thrashing computer in which the paging is MANUAL. > This would also reduce the punishment for the simple >error of ejecting the wrong disk when your copying a large file, or >other such operations. On a related note, why does the Mac always choose the wrong drive to eject on two-drive systems? I haven't really investigated extensively, but I think it ejects the disk most recently loaded. This usually is the wrong disk to eject, as many applications like to alternate reading stuff from the application disk and the system disk (the Hearts game I use alot loads a system window template, then loads its own menu bar, then loads the Desk Accessories menu, then loads its menu items, etc). If both disks are inserted when I start the application then everything runs fine, but if not, I end up swapping disks a half-dozen times. For years we have known that LRU is the closest approximation to the optimal replacement algorithm (when there is no a priori information about usage patterns), yet the MAC seems to use an MRU mechanism. Are the applications I have been using violating a convention (first load private resources, then load system resources) that the Mac programmers optimized for? -- Barry Margolin ARPA: barmar@MIT-Multics UUCP: ..!genrad!mit-eddie!barmar
beth@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP (Beth Christy) (08/21/85)
From: paul@fcstools.UUCP (Paul Perkins), Message-ID: <109@fcstools.UUCP>: >> "Having the disk eject when you drag it to the trash is a bad idea >> because it scares the user". > >I strongly disagree with this point, and with the idea that one can/should >try to predict by introspection what will "scare" the inexperienced user. I'm not exactly a novice user, and *I* was a little hesitant to put an entire disk in the trash (what if I'd misinterpreted the doc - everything else that goes in the trash eventually disappears *forever*, not just for the duration of the session). Now I do it all the time, and I think it's quite handy, thank you. But it *is* a departure from the typical meaning of trash, and it made me a tad queasy for a while. -- --JB (Beth Christy, U. of Chicago, ..!ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!beth) "Oh yeah, P.S., I...I feel...feel like...I am in a burning building And I gotta go." (Laurie Anderson)
warack@aero.ARPA (Chris Warack) (08/21/85)
its own menu bar, If the Mac already knows about the disk, then it asks for it to be placed in the drive the disk was in before. If another disk is there, [likely], then it ejects it. For instance: if disk A was in the ext drive, and the Mac needed disk A it would eject the disk in the ext drive no matter which disk was put in last. If the Mac doesn't know about the disk, then it is up to the program. Usually, a program uses the mini-finder which allows the user to specify the drive using <DRIVE> and <EJECT>. Chris, -- _______ |/-----\| Chris Warack (213) 648-6617 ||hello|| || || warack@aerospace.ARPA |-------| warack@aero.UUCP |@ ___ | seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!ittatc!dcdwest! |_______| sdcsvax!sdcrdcf!trwrb!trwrba!aero!warack || || \ Aerospace Corporation, M1-117, El Segundo, CA 90245 ^^^ ^^^ `---------(|=
tim@callan.UUCP (Tim Smith) (08/26/85)
> stuff from the application disk and the system disk (the Hearts game I > use alot loads a system window template, then loads its own menu bar, Is this Hearts from ArtSci ( or something like that ) ? And if so, does your copy also cheat? -- Tim Smith ihnp4!{cithep,wlbr!callan}!tim