mykes@3comvax.UUCP (Mike Schwartz) (01/07/86)
Does Jack Tramiel think he can get away with undercutting his competition, retailing his products at K-MART type outlets, and forcing the competition to drop their prices (and eventually drop out of business) again? The latest I have heard is that Tramiel has (for the second time now) got all of his distributors upset by lowering the price of the ST to about $400, and diverting his distribution to K-MART. Apparently AT&T will also sell the ST as a low end UNIX terminal. I see a little bit of humor in this, as well as a bit of sadness. If software developers support GEM (and produce MAC quality stuff), then the Mac could very well disappear. After all, you can't beat the price for such comparable machines. The humor of it all is that Commodore Amiga was in a real awkward price position in the market, and now they stand alone as the mid-priced REAL Computer (I can't help but think of a $400 computer as anything but a TOY - albeit a great toy). If Mr. Tramiel is trying to drive Commodore to its knees by forcing it to drop its Amiga price down near the ST's new price, he may be in for a rude awakening. What he has actually done is downgraded the 'a-priori' notion of the ST that we all have, and turned it into a real tough competitor for the COMMODORE 128. If the Amiga prices don't fall, then (MY OPINION) people might just give the machine the respect it deserves. There is a saying that goes "you get what you pay for", and to most people, the Amiga will still be worth the price. At this point, I think we ought to stop the silly Amiga vs. ST debate and get on with one that is more worthwhile: ST vs. 128... We all know about the ST, but the 128 is actually going to give it a run for its money (MY OPINION). On the software front, the 128 runs a few THOUSAND C64 programs, including the largest selection of graphics- arcade-etc. games. The 128 ALSO runs a few THOUSAND CP/M programs in 128 mode. The 128 is also packaged quite nicely, and is actually a real "sexy" machine. To the mass market consumer, these things might outweigh other minor details like higher resolution, more horsepower, better (this is open to debate) peripherals, etc. The Japanese tried to create a new standard a few years back called MSX. Although the MSX machines could never compete over here with the C64, I always felt that their reasoning was pretty sound. The buyer really doesn't care if he has a 1MHz 6502 or a 1GHz 68090 (I like inventing future chips) just as long as it runs the software they need to run - effectively. I would also like to mention the possibility that Tramiel will end up selling thousands of UNIX terminals before he DROPS the ST altogether in favor of the TT, which is supposed to have a 32032 instead of a 68000 (I hope they still use GEM and 'C' so you ST owners will be able to move on up with ATARI products. ----------- don't flame me, I'm doused with gasoline ----------- This may or may not be what you want to hear, but it may be true, but is only my humble opinion (and therefore might not be). /mykes ---------------------------------------------------------------- At $400, the ST might make a nice printer buffer for my Amiga....
foy@aero.ARPA (Richard Foy) (01/09/86)
In article <330@3comvax.UUCP> mykes@3comvax.UUCP (Mike Schwartz) writes: >the Mac could very well disappear. After all, you can't beat the price >for such comparable machines. The humor of it all is that Commodore Amiga >was in a real awkward price position in the market, and now they stand alone >as the mid-priced REAL Computer (I can't help but think of a $400 computer >as anything but a TOY - albeit a great toy). What is it about dropping the price on a machine ( which can do more than computers selling for many thousands of $ a few years ago) changes it to a toy?
hes@ecsvax.UUCP (01/10/86)
> Does Jack Tramiel think he can get away with undercutting his competition, > retailing his products at K-MART type outlets, and forcing the competition > to drop their prices (and eventually drop out of business) again? ... > > ... (I can't help but think of a $400 computer > as anything but a TOY - albeit a great toy). > > ... If the Amiga prices don't fall, then > (MY OPINION) people might just give the machine the respect it deserves. > There is a saying that goes "you get what you pay for", and to most people, > the Amiga will still be worth the price. > ... > /mykes > At $400, the ST might make a nice printer buffer for my Amiga.... Why doesn't Commodore just raise their prices up to the $10,000 range, and then people will buy Amigas instead of PC-ATs? One reason may be that not everyone is convinced that list price == real value. Furthermore, not everyone buys the most valuable system - sometimes one can't afford it, and has to settle for an affordable system. (As for me I'm buying a Sun 3 with hard disk server instead of a 520ST or Amiga -- at least that's what I'ld like to do, if I had the money to do it.) Seriously - the major *real* problem is that Atari could disrupt their dealer support network, making the 520ST less attractive to serious buyers. Of course since most developer/serious/hacker-type buyers seem to be already buying via mail - there may be little support present anyway, and then that loss will not make any difference. The added volume of sales of the ST would probably make developers more interested, though. --henry schaffer Disclaimer + 1/2 :-)
ixl9261@ritcv.UUCP (Ilia Levi) (01/11/86)
In article <330@3comvax.UUCP> mykes@3comvax.UUCP (Mike Schwartz) writes: >Does Jack Tramiel think he can get away with undercutting his competition, >retailing his products at K-MART type outlets, and forcing the competition >to drop their prices (and eventually drop out of business) again? The latest >I have heard is that Tramiel has (for the second time now) got all of his >distributors upset by lowering the price of the ST to about $400, and >diverting his distribution to K-MART. Apparently AT&T will also sell >the ST as a low end UNIX terminal. > ... >as the mid-priced REAL Computer (I can't help but think of a $400 computer >as anything but a TOY - albeit a great toy). > I totally aggree. I think that Jack Tramiel should make the price of the ST $400 higher than Amiga's, then it's going to sell like pancakes and be a much more powerful computer. :-) I bought my Atari 800 for $900 several years ago and it's a lot better computer than the $400 Atari 800 you could buy several years later. :-)
david@randvax.UUCP (David Shlapak) (01/11/86)
Please, please, PLEASE, whatever you do, do NOT begin this great
debate on net.micro.mac..!
--- dasray@rochester.UUCP (Ray Frank) (01/11/86)
> In article <330@3comvax.UUCP> mykes@3comvax.UUCP (Mike Schwartz) writes: > >Does Jack Tramiel think he can get away with undercutting his competition, > >retailing his products at K-MART type outlets, and forcing the competition > >to drop their prices (and eventually drop out of business) again? The latest > >I have heard is that Tramiel has (for the second time now) got all of his > >distributors upset by lowering the price of the ST to about $400, and > >diverting his distribution to K-MART. Apparently AT&T will also sell > >the ST as a low end UNIX terminal. > > ... > >as the mid-priced REAL Computer (I can't help but think of a $400 computer > >as anything but a TOY - albeit a great toy). > > Are you sure you don't own a computer store? 8-) It is better to sell something at a fair price than to bilk the public with outrageous pricing such as exists with Apple stuff. But if you really think a computer turns into a toy due to its pricing, I will buy an ST at K-Mart for $400 and sell it to you for $700 and you will have a 'real computer' again. And to be perfectly honest, I have absolutely no feelings for computer stores one way or the other, if they go out of business, tough. I know they had no feelings of sorrow when they tried to charge me $400.00 to upgrade my 16k pet to 32k several years back. I did it myself for about $30.00. If you want to subsidize computer stores, fine, but I don't, and given a choice, I would rather subsidize a farmer.8-) this is ray saying bye bye.
jdb@mordor.UUCP (John Bruner) (01/11/86)
>What is it about dropping the price on a machine ( which can do more than >computers selling for many thousands of $ a few years ago) changes it to >a toy? Also, why does a high price change a toy machine into a "serious" one? I have great difficulty considering a machine which can't display reasonable-quality text without flicker anything but a sophisticated games machine. -- John Bruner (S-1 Project, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory) MILNET: jdb@mordor [jdb@s1-c.ARPA] (415) 422-0758 UUCP: ...!ucbvax!dual!mordor!jdb ...!seismo!mordor!jdb
eve@ssc-bee.UUCP (Michael Eve) (01/13/86)
> ...(I can't help but think of a $400 computer > as anything but a TOY - albeit a great toy). Elitism rears it's ugly, yuppy head again. > ... If the Amiga prices don't fall, then > (MY OPINION) people might just give the machine the respect it deserves. > There is a saying that goes "you get what you pay for", and to most people, > the Amiga will still be worth the price. In the Amiga case, you are getting $40 million dollars worth of TV advertising plus the opportunity to pay off Commodore's huge debt for the mistakes AFTER Tramiel left. > > At this point, I think we ought to stop the silly Amiga vs. ST debate Agreed. It is very silly. Given two comparable computers, one $1500 and the other $300, the debate is ridiculous. P.S.: I really do like the Amiga computer; I just hate the price. (And I love all that memory on the new 1040 ST, and what about homebrew upgrades to 2 MEG!!) -- Mike Eve Boeing Aerospace, Seattle ...uw-beaver!ssc-vax!ssc-bee!eve
jgray@pilchuckDataio.UUCP (Jerrold Gray) (01/14/86)
*** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR ATOYRI *** > In article <330@3comvax.UUCP> mykes@3comvax.UUCP (Mike Schwartz) writes: > > >the Mac could very well disappear. After all, you can't beat the price > >for such comparable machines. The humor of it all is that Commodore Amiga > >was in a real awkward price position in the market, and now they stand alone > >as the mid-priced REAL Computer (I can't help but think of a $400 computer > >as anything but a TOY - albeit a great toy). > > What is it about dropping the price on a machine ( which can do more than > computers selling for many thousands of $ a few years ago) changes it to > a toy? One of the many affects of this kind of market repositioning is that some third party developers (mostly in harware, In my opinion) are either going to halt or pick up developments because of the price change. On the plus side, I think that the price drop will stimulate development and use of the ST. On the negative side, companies that might have considered the ST for professional use (do they exist?) might reconsider. So called "professional" products which could cost $1K-$50K each seem somewhat rediculous when paired with a $800 computer. A $400 dollar computer you say? Forget it. Why would a company soil its professional image associating with the rabble :-). Jerrold L. Gray uw-beaver!teltone!dataio!pilchuck!jgray USNAIL: 10525 Willows Road N.E. /C-46 Redmond, Wa. 98052 (206) 881 - 6444 x478 Telex: 15-2167 "Alright!.... Everyone get back in the TARDIS! Hup two three four..."
mjg@ecsvax.UUCP (01/14/86)
I think it is time that people redirected their energies to writing some useful programs instead of boring us all with this interminable ST versus Amiga debate. Then we would all be better off. The public will decide with their checkbooks and credit cards and until then contributing good programs to the machine of your choice would be far more valuable to your cause. Mike Gingell ...decvax!mcnc!ecsvax!mjg
david@randvax.UUCP (David Shlapak) (01/16/86)
Once again, while this may be "The real debate," I really don't think
it belongs on net.micro.mac; I used to own an Atari, and I used to own
a Commodore; now I own a computer, and I really don't want to hear
about Toys-r-Us hardware with Nowhere-in-Sight software...
Again, please edit the headers when you post this stuff...
Thanks! Cheers...
--- das