[net.micro.mac] Reed College maturity

nathan@orstcs.UUCP (nathan) (01/11/86)

While we're on the subject of excessive net traffic, it seems a good time
to discuss the behavior of people at Reed College.

Specifically, the Mac community's first contact with them (that I know
about) was the distribution of a fraudulently-labelled stolen copy of
Lonnie Abelbeck's VersaTerm product.

Since then, we've seen at least a megabyte of piddly, useless programs and
desk accessories written in Rascal.  It may be that Rascal itself is a 
useful product, but the evidence so far is that its primary function is
to consume net bandwidth for the aggrandizement of Reed students.

To the people at Reed: I'm sorry to come down on you so hard.  Perhaps you
could check with disinterested others to make sure your stuff is 
worth posting before you do so.

				Nathan C. Myers
				hp-pcd!orstcs!nathan

gwe@cbdkc1.UUCP ( George Erhart x4021 CB 3D288 WDS ) (01/14/86)

In article <21100021@orstcs.UUCP> nathan@orstcs.UUCP (nathan) writes:
>To the people at Reed: I'm sorry to come down on you so hard.  Perhaps you
>could check with disinterested others to make sure your stuff is 
>worth posting before you do so.
>
>				Nathan C. Myers

Hey Nathan, SPEAK FOR YOUR SELF!!!!! The folks at reed have posted some
trivial programs ... BUT, they have also posted sources. Even though they may
be in Rascal, they are useful in learning to program the Mac. We finally
have some people who program their macs and are willing to share their 
code and results with us. I for one am NOT a disinterested other, far from
it. I, personally, thought that they WERE thinking of others by sharing their
programs with us.

-- 
George Erhart at AT&T Bell Laboratories Columbus, Ohio 
614-860-4021 {ihnp4,cbosgd}!cbdkc1!gwe

moriarty@fluke.UUCP (Jeff Meyer) (01/14/86)

Wish to keep this short, so as not to use up dat ol' precious bandwith, but
I've found much of the net.sources.mac stuff from Reed to be very good
indeed.  And as to the Lonnie Albreck thing, Reed voluntarily took
themselves off the net as punishment and as a precaution while they
investigated the charges (last I heard, it was done as a frame-up to get
someone else in trouble).  Unstable people are everywhere, be it Portland,
Seattle or Corvallis; Reed tried to correct the mistake as best they could.
I'm sure OSU would try to do the same if they found themselves in similar
circumstances.

    "If you tell the truth, you must smile.  Otherwise, people will kill you."

                                        Moriarty, aka Jeff Meyer
ARPA: fluke!moriarty@uw-beaver.ARPA
UUCP: {uw-beaver, sun, allegra, sb6, lbl-csam}!fluke!moriarty
<*> DISCLAIMER: Do what you want with me, but leave my employers alone! <*>

vishniac@wanginst.UUCP (Ephraim Vishniac) (01/14/86)

> While we're on the subject of excessive net traffic, it seems a good time
> to discuss the behavior of people at Reed College.
> 
> Specifically, the Mac community's first contact with them (that I know
> about) was the distribution of a fraudulently-labelled stolen copy of
> Lonnie Abelbeck's VersaTerm product.

...which was the work of a vindictive *individual* and could have happened
anywhere.  The copy, you'll recall, was mislabelled with the name of someone
whose reputation the perpetrator wished to damage, not the perpetrator's own.

> Since then, we've seen at least a megabyte of piddly, useless programs and
> desk accessories written in Rascal.  It may be that Rascal itself is a 
> useful product, but the evidence so far is that its primary function is
> to consume net bandwidth for the aggrandizement of Reed students.

...some useless, some useful.  I've also received from *individuals* at
Reed a substantial amount of technical assistance, initially unsolicited,
on Mac programming problems.

> To the people at Reed: I'm sorry to come down on you so hard.  Perhaps you
> could check with disinterested others to make sure your stuff is 
> worth posting before you do so.
> 
> 				Nathan C. Myers
> 				hp-pcd!orstcs!nathan

On the whole, I'd say their noise/signal ratio is no worse than that of
the net as a whole.  It's clear that there's a lot of enthusiasm for the Mac
at Reed, and that may make them over-eager to share their work.  But I'd
rather have them on the net, noise and all, than condemn them for an excess
of enthusiasm.

-- 
Ephraim Vishniac
  [apollo, bbncca, cadmus, decvax, harvard, linus, masscomp]!wanginst!vishniac
  vishniac%Wang-Inst@Csnet-Relay

gcc@ssc-vax.UUCP (Greg C Croasdill) (01/14/86)

> While we're on the subject of excessive net traffic, it seems a good time
> to discuss the behavior of people at Reed College.
> 
> Specifically, the Mac community's first contact with them (that I know
> about) was the distribution of a fraudulently-labelled stolen copy of
> Lonnie Abelbeck's VersaTerm product.
> 
> Since then, we've seen at least a megabyte of piddly, useless programs and
> desk accessories written in Rascal.  It may be that Rascal itself is a 
> useful product, but the evidence so far is that its primary function is
> to consume net bandwidth for the aggrandizement of Reed students.
> 
> To the people at Reed: I'm sorry to come down on you so hard.  Perhaps you
> could check with disinterested others to make sure your stuff is 
> worth posting before you do so.
> 
> 				Nathan C. Myers
> 				hp-pcd!orstcs!nathan

*** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MaSSAGE ***

Dear Sir,

	Many of the things that go out over the net, are not of interest to all.
However, the reason for the net is to get *ideas* out to the masses, quickly,
inexpensivly and efficently.  Any program, no matter how _piddly_, has someones
time and ideas put into it (two expensive resources).  That program may just
have the solution in it that someone may be seeking.  I ask you, are these
programs any more or less important than DAs that corrupt your screen or 
*7* posting of last year's 1040 forms? Those are real useful to someone in
Canada!  Please, think before you speak, Athlete's tongue is a dangerous
disease.

					Greg C.
					(uw-beaver|fluke)!ssc-vax!gcc

ps And while we are on the subject of net traffic,  you could of saved the
   space of your comment and mine if you had bothered to look at one of their
   postings and eMailed to the Reed college Maclab (any idiot can do that).
   KEEP SMALL TOWN, COLLEGE RIVALRIES, OFF OF THE NET!

jww@sdcsvax.UUCP (Joel West) (01/14/86)

> While we're on the subject of excessive net traffic, it seems a good time
> to discuss the behavior of people at Reed College.
>
> Specifically, the Mac community's first contact with them (that I know
> about) was the distribution of a fraudulently-labelled stolen copy of
> Lonnie Abelbeck's VersaTerm product.

Wrong.  They offerred free beta testing of Rascal on the net, and
several dozen netters took them up.  This predates the VersaTerm
piracy by 6 months.

> Since then, we've seen at least a megabyte of piddly, useless programs and
> desk accessories written in Rascal.  It may be that Rascal itself is a
> useful product, but the evidence so far is that its primary function is
> to consume net bandwidth for the aggrandizement of Reed students.

It is generally considered that source code -- ANY source code -- is
of educational value.  That's why these newsgroups exist.

> To the people at Reed: I'm sorry to come down on you so hard.  Perhaps you
> could check with disinterested others to make sure your stuff is
> worth posting before you do so.

I'm a "disinterested other", and I think what they've done is of value.
What have you done for the net recently?

Or, to quote the Terminator...no, I can't, the net would be shut down
for obscenity violations.

        Joel West       CACI, Inc. - Federal (c/o UC San Diego)
        {ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4}!sdcsvax!jww
        jww@SDCSVAX.ARPA

dubois@uwmacc.UUCP (Paul DuBois) (01/14/86)

> [Nathan C. Myers]
> While we're on the subject of excessive net traffic, it seems a good time
> to discuss the behavior of people at Reed College.

OK, lets.

> Specifically, the Mac community's first contact with them (that I know
> about) was the distribution of a fraudulently-labelled stolen copy of
> Lonnie Abelbeck's VersaTerm product.

I believe that there were some announcements regarding the availability
of Rascal and associated laboratory-control software prior to this
incident.

> Since then, we've seen at least a megabyte of piddly, useless programs and
> desk accessories written in Rascal.

I assume you are speaking rhetorically.

> It may be that Rascal itself is a 
> useful product, but the evidence so far is that its primary function is
> to consume net bandwidth for the aggrandizement of Reed students.

> To the people at Reed: I'm sorry to come down on you so hard.  Perhaps you
> could check with disinterested others to make sure your stuff is 
> worth posting before you do so.

Well, I don't wish to jump on you, but perhaps you should check with
others (like myself) before you post your own articles?

What *evidence* are you talking about?  Do you have evidence that these
programs are not used by anybody?  (That means proving a negative,
which I suppose might be difficult.  It's much easier to make
unsupported sweeping denigrations than to back up your charges, I
suppose...)  Have you ever used Rascal yourself?  Do you know anything
about it?  What wonderful non-piddly programs are *you* posting/writing?

Are the programs written in other languages that are posted on the
net generally piddly or non-piddly?  There's a lot of stuff that
comes across that I personally consider worthless, but I haven't noticed
any correlation between usefulness and language.  Nor is it true that
because you or I don't like something, nobody else will.

Some specific Rascal programs that I have found worthwhile:

Squirmterm:  Terminal emulator.  Simple, but small (33K), and I
don't need anything else.  I like it lots better than Red Ryder or
Kermit (admittedly I have not tried MacTerminal or VersaTerm, etc.)
I use it all the time, and I find that I'm not constantly aware of
things that it doesn't do that I wished it did.

IconMaker:  Does something most other programs don't (NONE others that
I know of, but just to be safe...):  it installs the edited icon in
the desktop, so you don't have to mess around in there yourself.

ReadMacWrite:  pulls text from MacWrite files.  Not an elaborate
task, to be sure, but very nice for converting files to run other
programs on, so that things such as word counters or other text
analysis things can be done.  I DO NOT like MacWrite's facilities
for writing text files.

DA's:  I agree with you that the posted DA's have not in the main
been useful.  But that has nothing to do with the language itself,
only with the choice of what to write a DA for.  What's relevant
for the programmer is that Rascal makes it WONDERFULLY easy to write
desk accessories.  You can write it, create the object, and test it
without ever leaving Rascal.  You can put it in the system too, but
that's not as robust.

Other programs written in Rascal:

Black Box:  I don't use this because it turns out to be an
unauthorized version of a trademarked/copyrighted game.  However,
it demonstrates that non-trivial programs can be written, and by
non-Reed people.

Rascal Billiards:  Try it and see (posted under the name Rascal
Collision Detection Animation, or something like that).

Here at the UW Primate Center Rascal is the only language I have,
and I'm not hopping up and down to get another language.  I've
found it useful for creating research software.  One of our
investigators also bought it and is using it in his labs.

My only gripe is that I wish they'd release the next version so
we could *use* it, instead of trying to fix every little thing!
I'd rather have the upgrade now and a third release later.
(Others I know feel the same way, Scott!)

In summary:  I like Rascal.  I like it A LOT.  And I don't even
like Pascal!

But (obviously) I am biased, so perhaps you will say of me that,
like Leon Croizat, "leprous has been my manner of thinking from
that day I was born."

-- 
                                                                    |
Paul DuBois     {allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!dubois        --+--
                                                                    |
   "We are all catastrophists now."                                 |

gus@Shasta.ARPA (01/15/86)

> Since then, we've seen at least a megabyte of piddly, useless programs and
> desk accessories written in Rascal.  It may be that Rascal itself is a 
> useful product, but the evidence so far is that its primary function is
> to consume net bandwidth for the aggrandizement of Reed students.
> 

This sounds more like an immature football rivalry than a posting from a
responsible person. Much of the stuff done in Rascal by Reed IS very high
quality software and should not be knocked. While nobody liked the VersaTerm
incident, this was an isolated case by as single perpetrator who could have
been at any university. This should not reflect on Reed. If you have any
personal gervances with anyone at Reed college, or if you have list
thausands of dollars using a program written at Reed because it bombed, then
plese state the specific problem. Usenet is a forum where all can share from
each other's efforts, and as such we are each expected to contribue in
positive ways. We all can appreciate the effort put into writing the many 
software packages placed on the net. Each is interesting in its own way and 
none should be knocked.

							Gus Fernandez

gcc@ssc-vax.UUCP (Greg C Croasdill) (01/17/86)

> ...
> could check with disinterested others to make sure your stuff is 
> worth posting before you do so.
> 
> 				Nathan C. Myers
> 				hp-pcd!orstcs!nathan
> 

..........:::***ch crunch mumble burp crunch<ESSAGE ***

I'd like to point out to Mr. Myers, that his useful/useless ratio
has just been shot to ****.  Even if Reed College put out 100% crap
their ratio would be no worse than his is right now.  To make a point
perfectly clear (and I quote):

" (and I wish that you)
> could check with disinterested others to make sure your stuff is 
> worth posting before you do so. "

(end quoote)

(end message)
greg

----------------------
Greg Croasdill
(uw-beaver|fluke)!ssc-vax!gcc

----------------------

(standard discaimer)

mcb@styx.UUCP (Michael C. Berch) (01/21/86)

In article <21100021@orstcs.UUCP> nathan@orstcs.UUCP (nathan) writes:
> While we're on the subject of excessive net traffic, it seems a good time
> to discuss the behavior of people at Reed College.
> 
> Specifically, the Mac community's first contact with them (that I know
> about) was the distribution of a fraudulently-labelled stolen copy of
> Lonnie Abelbeck's VersaTerm product.

So what? Are you going to tar everyone in the Mac group with the same
brush because somebody made a mistake? Never mind that Reed dealt with
the situation in a mature manner.

> Since then, we've seen at least a megabyte of piddly, useless programs and
> desk accessories written in Rascal.  It may be that Rascal itself is a 
> useful product, but the evidence so far is that its primary function is
> to consume net bandwidth for the aggrandizement of Reed students.

This is offensive. Perhaps YOU find the Rascal material "piddly" and
"useless".  Even though we do not plan to use Rascal, the source code
examples were illuminating and worthwhile, rather more so than the
Nth version of some binhexed utility. [I'm not knocking those, either!]

> To the people at Reed: I'm sorry to come down on you so hard.  Perhaps you
> could check with disinterested others to make sure your stuff is 
> worth posting before you do so.
> 
> 				Nathan C. Myers
> 				hp-pcd!orstcs!nathan

As a "disinterested other", I think that Mr. Myers owes both Reed
College and the Usenet/ARPANET Macintosh community an apology, and I
hope it is a sincere one. If I were at Reed I could imagine saying to
my self, "If these @#$#%holes don't appreciate the postings, I'll take
them elsewhere." And that, Mr. Myers, would be a disservice to the
network.

Michael C. Berch
ARPA: mcb@lll-tis-b.ARPA
UUCP: {akgua,allegra,cbosgd,decwrl,dual,ihnp4,sun}!idi!styx!mcb