bart@reed.UUCP (Bart Massey) (02/14/86)
In article <635@well.UUCP> Peter Espen says > ..like on many of the older 5.25" and 8" drives that we all know and > don't miss. Speak for yourself. I don't know if it's the IWM, the filesystem, the mac format, or just inevitable problems with the high-density medium, but I've seen more flakey mac disks in a week than I saw flakey 5.25" and 8" disks in a month. Besides, there was really nothing inherently wrong with the 5.25" drives -- the disks were plenty tiny to suit me, and had the potential for the same storage as the mac disks. I suppose it's the size of the drives that was what made Apple use them in the mac, but frankly I would rather have had a bigger box, with a 5.25" drive with a real VLSI MFM disk controller chip in it... Heck, the drives were almost the only thing the IBM PC did right! Got the 3.5" Blues, Bart Massey ..tektronix!reed!bart
jimb@amdcad.UUCP (Jim Budler) (02/17/86)
In article <2497@reed.UUCP> bart@reed.UUCP (Bart Massey) writes: >In article <635@well.UUCP> Peter Espen says >> ..like on many of the older 5.25" and 8" drives that we all know and >> don't miss. > >Speak for yourself. I don't know if it's the IWM, the filesystem, >the mac format, or just inevitable problems with the high-density >medium, but I've seen more flakey mac disks in a week than >... >that was what made Apple use them in the mac, but frankly I would rather >have had a bigger box, with a 5.25" drive with a real VLSI MFM disk >controller chip in it... Heck, the drives were almost the only thing >the IBM PC did right! > Say what. I've run my two mac drives a year and a half, cleaned them three times, and lost one (repeat ONE) floppy during that period, (not counting the one where I stuck a good disk into the washing machine). During that time there have been two drives replaced out of 4 IBM PC's at work. Those are XT's so we are talking about a 50% failure rate. -- Jim Budler Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. (408) 749-5806 Usenet: {ucbvax,decwrl,ihnp4,allegra,intelca}!amdcad!jimb Compuserve: 72415,1200
tim@ism780c.UUCP (Tim Smith) (02/21/86)
One real nice thing about the smaller disks is their hard case. This, and the small size, means you can stick a disk in your pocket. Try sticking a 5 1/4 standard floppy disk in your pants pocket some day! Also, they are small enough to fit in a regular envelope, and sturdy enough that it might even be safe to trust the Post Office with them. For example, I am writting a letter to a friend. When I am at home, I can work on the letter on my Mac. When I go to Caltech to visit friends, I can put a copy of the letter on a disk, and take it with me. Then I can use a Mac at Caltech to work on the letter there. When done, I can just drop the disk in an envelope ( the recipient has a Mac ), stick on proper postage ( around $0.39, I think ), and send it. With 5 1/4" disks, I would have to be much more careful with the disk, and I would have to get a floppy mailer to send it. -- Tim Smith sdcrdcf!ism780c!tim || ima!ism780!tim || ihnp4!cithep!tim
bart@reed.UUCP (Bart Massey) (02/21/86)
In article <9607@amdcad.UUCP> jimb@amdcad (Jim Budler) says: > In article <2497@reed.UUCP> bart@reed.UUCP (Bart Massey) writes: > >In article <635@well.UUCP> Peter Espen says > >> ..like on many of the older 5.25" and 8" drives that we all know and > >> don't miss. > > > >Speak for yourself. I don't know if it's the IWM, the filesystem, > >the mac format, or just inevitable problems with the high-density > >medium, but I've seen more flakey mac disks in a week than > >... > >that was what made Apple use them in the mac, but frankly I would rather > >have had a bigger box, with a 5.25" drive with a real VLSI MFM disk > >controller chip in it... Heck, the drives were almost the only thing > >the IBM PC did right! > > > > Say what. I've run my two mac drives a year and a half, cleaned them > three times, and lost one (repeat ONE) floppy during that period, (not > counting the one where I stuck a good disk into the washing machine). > > During that time there have been two drives replaced out of 4 IBM PC's > at work. Those are XT's so we are talking about a 50% failure rate. Ok, I'll bite. The point is, at least on a IBM, when the drives fail, the DRIVES fail, and quit writing disks. This is because the MFM controller uses a reasonable format, and can detect bad reads and crash the machine immediately. The most common failure mode we've seen at Reed on the 400K drives (I would estimate half of our 500 odd machines have this problem to some degree) is misalignment just severe enough to cause OCCASIONAL miswrites, which make the disk readable ONLY BY THE MACHINE THAT WROTE IT. And of course there's no way to realign the drive. All Apple will do is replace it. Neat, huh. At any rate, 50% PC floppy drive failure rates are unusual, in my experience. Besides, many PCs contain third party floppy drives. Try that on a Mac! Admittedly, not all Mac drives are bad. But the percentage rate, here, is high enough to make me angry. Especially when my machine at home is one of them. -- Bart Massey ..tektronix!reed!bart
liberte@uiucdcsb.CS.UIUC.EDU (02/23/86)
Looking inside the Mac, the hole at the front of the case where you stick your disks in the drive has the vestigial markings of a 5 1/4" size drive. Anyone know the story, if there is one? Dan LaLiberte liberte@uiucdcs.Uiuc.ARPA ihnp4!uiucdcs!liberte
bart@reed.UUCP (Bart Massey) (02/23/86)
> One real nice thing about the smaller disks is their hard case. > This, and the small size, means you can stick a disk in your > pocket. Try sticking a 5 1/4 standard floppy disk in your pants > pocket some day! Also, they are small enough to fit in a regular > envelope, and sturdy enough that it might even be safe to trust > the Post Office with them. > ... > Tim Smith sdcrdcf!ism780c!tim || ima!ism780!tim || ihnp4!cithep!tim Anyone who carries 3.5s around in their pants pocket deserves whatever happens to the things. One would need a STEEL case to make it safe to SIT ON the things... In fact, if one does break one of those hard cases, one does a lot more damage to the media than if one were to bend a floppy a bit. As far as mailing, I've mailed 5.25s in just an envelope. Admittedly, this isn't the height of brights if it is crucial that the data get to the other end safely. On the other hand, when was the last time you got a letter wadded or folded? The Post Office just tosses them in boxes and bags. Pretty harmless stuff. I've also seen a 5.25 99% readable after being run over by a car... But enough on this subject. From the postings I've seen, and the mail I've received, apparently Apple was right in believing that the 3.5" drive would be a big mac selling point. And I was wrong in thinking there was a significant minority out there who, like myself, wished Apple had stuck with tried, true, and boring floppy technology. My apologies :-) . Bart Massey ..tektronix!reed!bart -- Bart Massey ..tektronix!reed!bart
spector@acf4.UUCP (David HM Spector) (02/24/86)
Well, Folklore has it that the switch to the sony drive was made VERY late in the project. So the Macintoshes internal frame and mounting structures were designed for twiggy drives (5.25" dual-slotted disks). When Steve Jobs finally made the decision (or was coerced?) to use the 3.5" sony's luck was on his side that all they had to do was make a small modification to the injection mold for the Macintosh's case and they were set to use the sony's(i.e., the sony drives could be made to fit into the frame. If you've never seen the inside of a Macintosh, its done with a sheet metal bracket, or at least mine is...:-). I wonder if the Macintosh Plus still has the old frame, or if its been re-engineered for the smaller drives...? David Spector NYU/acf Systems Group
gpw@ihlpf.UUCP (Wilkin) (02/24/86)
> > Looking inside the Mac, the hole at the front of the case where you > stick your disks in the drive has the vestigial markings of a 5 1/4" > size drive. Anyone know the story, if there is one? > Dan LaLiberte > ihnp4!uiucdcs!liberte A long time ago, there was a computer called LISA. Well this LISA had double sided 5.25" disks which stored around 800K. It was a strange drive much like the single sided version of the MAC drive, except it hads an eject button. The button controlled a motorized ejector. APPLE decided to junk these drives, and thus the LISA II was born. Guess which computer was designed at the same time? That's right the MAC! The original mac was to have one LISA I style drive. Small design change along the way. I'm not griping, those 5.25 disks were very sensitive, wrinkle them and it's good bye data. gpw -- George Wilkin AT&T Network Systems work 312-979-6593 ihnp4!ihlpf!gpw Naperville-Wheaton Road Naperville, IL
borton@sdcc3.UUCP (Chris Borton) (02/25/86)
In article <69600004@uiucdcsb> liberte@uiucdcsb.CS.UIUC.EDU writes: > >Looking inside the Mac, the hole at the front of the case where you >stick your disks in the drive has the vestigial markings of a 5 1/4" >size drive. Anyone know the story, if there is one? > The Mac was originally a cheap Lisa, and started out with the 5.25" 'twiggy' drives that the Lisa had. The inside of the Mac still has room for the bigger drive. --chris Chris Borton, UC San Diego Undergraduate CS Micro Consultant, UCSD borton@ucsd.ARPA or ...!{ucbvax,decvax,noscvax,ihnp4,bang}!sdcsvax!borton
tim@ism780c.UUCP (Tim Smith) (02/25/86)
In article <2585@reed.UUCP> bart@reed.UUCP (Bart Massey) writes: > >Anyone who carries 3.5s around in their pants pocket deserves whatever >happens to the things. One would need a STEEL case to make it safe to >SIT ON the things... In fact, if one does break one of those hard cases, I meant the _front_ pocket, not the back pocket. I rarely sit on my front pockets. I suppose if one were small enough, the curvature of the body near the front pocket would be enough to bend the disks, but I have had too many pizzas for that to happen to my disks! :-) -- Tim Smith sdcrdcf!ism780c!tim || ima!ism780!tim || ihnp4!cithep!tim
mrgofor@mmm.UUCP (MKR) (02/26/86)
In article <2585@reed.UUCP> bart@reed.UUCP (Bart Massey) writes: > >But enough on this subject. From the postings I've seen, and the mail >I've received, apparently Apple was right in believing that the 3.5" drive >would be a big mac selling point. And I was wrong in thinking there was >a significant minority out there who, like myself, wished Apple had stuck >with tried, true, and boring floppy technology. My apologies :-) . > > Bart Massey > ..tektronix!reed!bart If I'm not mistaken, the 5.25 floppies originally intended for the Mac (ever seen old pictures of the Mac development team taken at their desks? I think there were some in the premier issue of MacWorld - the Macs on the desks behind the team members have 5.25" slots) were the same as the Lisa "Twiggy" drives. If you think those were "tried, true ... floppy technology", then I'd be willing to bet that you never owned a Lisa 1. They were AWFUL - unreliable and non-standard media - Yuck. I never understood why they went through all those gyrations to get 800K per floppy (two sets of heads that required two access ovals in the diskette jacket) when the Fortune 32:16 I had been working on had about the same capacity and could use normal double density media. Those twiggy drives had no advantages and some very severe flaws. The ONLY thing they had over the 3.5 Sonys was capacity. -- --MKR There is none so blind as he who cannot see.