[net.micro.mac] Who Misses Older Drives?

bart@reed.UUCP (Bart Massey) (02/14/86)

In article <635@well.UUCP> Peter Espen says
> ..like on many of the older 5.25" and 8" drives that we all know and
> don't miss.

Speak for yourself.  I don't know if it's the IWM, the filesystem,
the mac format, or just inevitable problems with the high-density
medium, but I've seen more flakey mac disks in a week than
I saw flakey 5.25" and 8" disks in a month.  Besides, there was
really nothing inherently wrong with the 5.25" drives -- the
disks were plenty tiny to suit me, and had the potential for the
same storage as the mac disks.  I suppose it's the size of the drives
that was what made Apple use them in the mac, but frankly I would rather
have had a bigger box, with a 5.25" drive with a real VLSI MFM disk
controller chip in it...  Heck, the drives were almost the only thing
the IBM PC did right!

						Got the 3.5" Blues,
						Bart Massey
						..tektronix!reed!bart

jimb@amdcad.UUCP (Jim Budler) (02/17/86)

In article <2497@reed.UUCP> bart@reed.UUCP (Bart Massey) writes:
>In article <635@well.UUCP> Peter Espen says
>> ..like on many of the older 5.25" and 8" drives that we all know and
>> don't miss.
>
>Speak for yourself.  I don't know if it's the IWM, the filesystem,
>the mac format, or just inevitable problems with the high-density
>medium, but I've seen more flakey mac disks in a week than
>...
>that was what made Apple use them in the mac, but frankly I would rather
>have had a bigger box, with a 5.25" drive with a real VLSI MFM disk
>controller chip in it...  Heck, the drives were almost the only thing
>the IBM PC did right!
>

Say what.  I've run my two mac drives a year and a half, cleaned them
three times, and lost one (repeat ONE) floppy during that period, (not
counting the one where I stuck a good disk into the washing machine).

During that time there have been two drives replaced out of 4 IBM PC's
at work.  Those are XT's so we are talking about a 50% failure rate.
-- 
 Jim Budler
 Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.
 (408) 749-5806
 Usenet: {ucbvax,decwrl,ihnp4,allegra,intelca}!amdcad!jimb
 Compuserve:	72415,1200

tim@ism780c.UUCP (Tim Smith) (02/21/86)

One real nice thing about the smaller disks is their hard case.  
This, and the small size, means you can stick a disk in your 
pocket.  Try sticking a 5 1/4 standard floppy disk in your pants 
pocket some day!  Also, they are small enough to fit in a regular 
envelope, and sturdy enough that it might even be safe to trust 
the Post Office with them.  

For example, I am writting a letter to a friend.  When I am at 
home, I can work on the letter on my Mac.  When I go to Caltech 
to visit friends, I can put a copy of the letter on a disk, and 
take it with me.  Then I can use a Mac at Caltech to work on the 
letter there.  When done, I can just drop the disk in an envelope 
( the recipient has a Mac ), stick on proper postage ( around 
$0.39, I think ), and send it.  

With 5 1/4" disks, I would have to be much more careful with the
disk, and I would have to get a floppy mailer to send it.

-- 
Tim Smith       sdcrdcf!ism780c!tim || ima!ism780!tim || ihnp4!cithep!tim

bart@reed.UUCP (Bart Massey) (02/21/86)

In article <9607@amdcad.UUCP> jimb@amdcad (Jim Budler) says:
> In article <2497@reed.UUCP> bart@reed.UUCP (Bart Massey) writes:
> >In article <635@well.UUCP> Peter Espen says
> >> ..like on many of the older 5.25" and 8" drives that we all know and
> >> don't miss.
> >
> >Speak for yourself.  I don't know if it's the IWM, the filesystem,
> >the mac format, or just inevitable problems with the high-density
> >medium, but I've seen more flakey mac disks in a week than
> >...
> >that was what made Apple use them in the mac, but frankly I would rather
> >have had a bigger box, with a 5.25" drive with a real VLSI MFM disk
> >controller chip in it...  Heck, the drives were almost the only thing
> >the IBM PC did right!
> >
> 
> Say what.  I've run my two mac drives a year and a half, cleaned them
> three times, and lost one (repeat ONE) floppy during that period, (not
> counting the one where I stuck a good disk into the washing machine).
> 
> During that time there have been two drives replaced out of 4 IBM PC's
> at work.  Those are XT's so we are talking about a 50% failure rate.

Ok, I'll bite.  The point is, at least on a IBM, when the drives fail, the
DRIVES fail, and quit writing disks.  This is because the MFM controller
uses a reasonable format, and can detect bad reads and crash the machine
immediately.  The most common failure mode we've seen at Reed on the 400K
drives (I would estimate half of our 500 odd machines have this problem
to some degree) is misalignment just severe enough to cause OCCASIONAL
miswrites, which make the disk readable ONLY BY THE MACHINE THAT WROTE IT.
And of course there's no way to realign the drive.  All Apple will do is
replace it.  Neat, huh.

At any rate, 50% PC floppy drive failure rates are unusual, in my experience.
Besides, many PCs contain third party floppy drives.  Try that on a Mac!
Admittedly, not all Mac drives are bad.  But the percentage rate, here,
is high enough to make me angry.  Especially when my machine at home is
one of them.
-- 
					Bart Massey
					..tektronix!reed!bart

liberte@uiucdcsb.CS.UIUC.EDU (02/23/86)

Looking inside the Mac, the hole at the front of the case where you
stick your disks in the drive has the vestigial markings of a 5 1/4"
size drive.  Anyone know the story, if there is one?


Dan LaLiberte
liberte@uiucdcs.Uiuc.ARPA
ihnp4!uiucdcs!liberte

bart@reed.UUCP (Bart Massey) (02/23/86)

> One real nice thing about the smaller disks is their hard case.  
> This, and the small size, means you can stick a disk in your 
> pocket.  Try sticking a 5 1/4 standard floppy disk in your pants 
> pocket some day!  Also, they are small enough to fit in a regular 
> envelope, and sturdy enough that it might even be safe to trust 
> the Post Office with them.  
> ...
> Tim Smith       sdcrdcf!ism780c!tim || ima!ism780!tim || ihnp4!cithep!tim

Anyone who carries 3.5s around in their pants pocket deserves whatever
happens to the things.  One would need a STEEL case to make it safe to
SIT ON the things...  In fact, if one does break one of those hard cases,
one does a lot more damage to the media than if one were to bend a floppy
a bit.

As far as mailing, I've mailed 5.25s in just an envelope.  Admittedly, this
isn't the height of brights if it is crucial that the data get to the other
end safely.  On the other hand, when was the last time you got a letter
wadded or folded?  The Post Office just tosses them in boxes and bags.
Pretty harmless stuff.  I've also seen a 5.25 99% readable after being
run over by a car...

But enough on this subject.  From the postings I've seen, and the mail
I've received, apparently Apple was right in believing that the 3.5" drive
would be a big mac selling point.  And I was wrong in thinking there was
a significant minority out there who, like myself, wished Apple had stuck
with tried, true, and boring floppy technology.  My apologies :-) .

					Bart Massey
					..tektronix!reed!bart
-- 
					Bart Massey
					..tektronix!reed!bart

spector@acf4.UUCP (David HM Spector) (02/24/86)

Well, Folklore has it that the switch to the sony drive was made VERY late in
the project. So the Macintoshes internal frame and mounting structures were
designed for twiggy drives (5.25" dual-slotted disks).  When Steve Jobs
finally made the decision (or was coerced?) to use the 3.5" sony's luck was on
his side that all they had to do was make a small modification to the injection
mold for the Macintosh's case and they were set to use the sony's(i.e., the
sony drives could be made to fit into the frame. If you've never seen the
inside of a Macintosh, its done with a sheet metal bracket, or at least mine
is...:-). 

I wonder if the Macintosh Plus still has the old frame, or if its been 
re-engineered for the smaller drives...?


					David Spector
					NYU/acf Systems Group

gpw@ihlpf.UUCP (Wilkin) (02/24/86)

> 
> Looking inside the Mac, the hole at the front of the case where you
> stick your disks in the drive has the vestigial markings of a 5 1/4"
> size drive.  Anyone know the story, if there is one?
> Dan LaLiberte
> ihnp4!uiucdcs!liberte

A long time ago, there was a computer called LISA.
Well this LISA had double sided 5.25" disks which stored
around 800K. It was a strange drive much like the single
sided version of the MAC drive, except it hads an eject
button. The button controlled a motorized ejector.

APPLE decided to junk these drives, and thus the LISA II
was born. Guess which computer was designed at the same time?
That's right the MAC! 

The original mac was to have one LISA I style drive. Small design
change along the way.

I'm not griping, those 5.25 disks were very sensitive, wrinkle them
and it's good bye data.
gpw

-- 

George Wilkin                                  AT&T Network Systems   
work 312-979-6593 ihnp4!ihlpf!gpw              Naperville-Wheaton Road
                                               Naperville, IL 

borton@sdcc3.UUCP (Chris Borton) (02/25/86)

In article <69600004@uiucdcsb> liberte@uiucdcsb.CS.UIUC.EDU writes:
>
>Looking inside the Mac, the hole at the front of the case where you
>stick your disks in the drive has the vestigial markings of a 5 1/4"
>size drive.  Anyone know the story, if there is one?
>

The Mac was originally a cheap Lisa, and started out with the 5.25" 'twiggy' 
drives that the Lisa had.  The inside of the Mac still has room for the 
bigger drive.

--chris

Chris Borton, UC San Diego Undergraduate CS	
Micro Consultant, UCSD

borton@ucsd.ARPA  or  
...!{ucbvax,decvax,noscvax,ihnp4,bang}!sdcsvax!borton

tim@ism780c.UUCP (Tim Smith) (02/25/86)

In article <2585@reed.UUCP> bart@reed.UUCP (Bart Massey) writes:
>
>Anyone who carries 3.5s around in their pants pocket deserves whatever
>happens to the things.  One would need a STEEL case to make it safe to
>SIT ON the things...  In fact, if one does break one of those hard cases,

I meant the _front_ pocket, not the back pocket.  I rarely sit on my front
pockets.  I suppose if one were small enough, the curvature of the body
near the front pocket would be enough to bend the disks, but I have had
too many pizzas for that to happen to my disks! :-)
--
Tim Smith       sdcrdcf!ism780c!tim || ima!ism780!tim || ihnp4!cithep!tim

mrgofor@mmm.UUCP (MKR) (02/26/86)

In article <2585@reed.UUCP> bart@reed.UUCP (Bart Massey) writes:
>
>But enough on this subject.  From the postings I've seen, and the mail
>I've received, apparently Apple was right in believing that the 3.5" drive
>would be a big mac selling point.  And I was wrong in thinking there was
>a significant minority out there who, like myself, wished Apple had stuck
>with tried, true, and boring floppy technology.  My apologies :-) .
>
>					Bart Massey
>					..tektronix!reed!bart

	If I'm not mistaken, the 5.25 floppies originally intended for the
Mac (ever seen old pictures of the Mac development team taken at their desks?
I think there were some in the premier issue of MacWorld - the Macs on the
desks behind the team members have 5.25" slots) were the same as the Lisa
"Twiggy" drives. If you think those were "tried, true ... floppy technology",
then I'd be willing to bet that you never owned a Lisa 1. They were AWFUL -
unreliable and non-standard media - Yuck. I never understood why they went
through all those gyrations to get 800K per floppy (two sets of heads that
required two access ovals in the diskette jacket) when the Fortune 32:16 I
had been working on had about the same capacity and could use normal
double density media. Those twiggy drives had no advantages and some very 
severe flaws. The ONLY thing they had over the 3.5 Sonys was capacity.

-- 
					--MKR

There is none so blind as he who cannot see.