mazlack@ernie.berkeley.edu (Lawrence J. Mazlack) (04/08/86)
> >If you think *thats* bad, try the mathematics of buying a Macintosh XL >for $3999, then trading it for a Mac+ for $1499, not counting the >$600 512K memory board which doesn't have any trade-in value at all. >Not that we have that much choice, the XL is too slow and has no sound >generation. The question for the day is "How much did you pay for your Mac+??" > Kelton Flinn The analogy that several people posted to me is: How would you like to buy a GM car (a complete Lisa aka XL costed about that much: Lisa + memory board + software + printer) and then be told six months later by GM that (a) they have decided that making your car was a mistake, (b) they will do their best to ignore its existence, and (c) if you want a new, smaller one you can give them another $1499. In point of fact auto makers do not do this. When a model is abandoned, they usually establish a 10-15 year supply of parts for it. Ditto when an auto mfg goes out of business. It is still possible to buy Kaiser and Studebaker parts. As it turns out, you can also get service and parts for IBM 1401s, IBM 1620s, and IBM 704s (!!!) all of which are still in service, 20+ years after last manufacture and 15+ years after obselence. Why someone would want to do this is besides the point - but I have seen all of these critters still running in the last four years. (Note: being hacker orientated, I do not, myself, run on IBM equipment.) I have also seen a bunch of early PDP stuff still running - however, most of the PDP stuff is get going by university personnel - but, I guess, that DEC would do it for you as well. Larry Mazlack UUCP {tektronix,dual,sun,ihnp4,decvax}!ucbvax!ucbernie!mazlack New style mazlack@ernie.berkeley.edu ARPA | CSNET mazlack%ernie@berkeley.ARPA BITNET mazlack@ucbernie.BITNET telephone (415) 528-0496 snail CS Dept, 571 Evans, U. California, Berkeley, CA 94720
chuq@sun.uucp (Chuq Von Rospach) (04/09/86)
> How would you like to buy a GM car (a complete Lisa aka XL costed about that > much: Lisa + memory board + software + printer) and then be told six months > later by GM that (a) they have decided that making your car was a mistake, > (b) they will do their best to ignore its existence, and (c) if you want > a new, smaller one you can give them another $1499. > > In point of fact auto makers do not do this. When a model is abandoned, they > usually establish a 10-15 year supply of parts for it. Ditto when an auto > mfg goes out of business. It is still possible to buy Kaiser and Studebaker > parts. Have you looked at prices for parts for abandoned models? In my earlier days I owned a Chevy Corvair (definitely an abandoned model). When I had to replace a rear brake tail lens (a 4 inch piece of molded plastic, color red) the Chevy dealer was happy to do so. For $35 each, with a three week wait while they figured out which warehouse it was in. At that rat, the 'A' key on a Lisa keyboard would run you about $50. > As it turns out, you can also get service and parts for IBM 1401s, IBM 1620s, > and IBM 704s (!!!) all of which are still in service, 20+ years after last > manufacture and 15+ years after obselence. And the support contract pricing is usually astronomical; it just isn't high enough to force people to do the recoding to move to a decent machine. RCA did a similar thing to my mother's TV set. Beautiful machine, all tube, and they slowly raised the service contract to the point where she was paying the equivalent of a new TV every 18 months. So she bought a new TV. People with lots of IBM 704 assembler don't always have that option. This is all beside the point, really. What is the point is whether or not Apple is 'doing right' by its customers. People who buy machines and then expect Apple to give them upgrades free are unrealistic. You have to ignore the current price of the machine in your calculations -- if you waited until now to buy it, you would have saved money, but look at all those things you wouldn't have gotten done. Call it 'rent', call it whatever, by buying the machine then you got use out of it. Based on talking to people and looking around at the rest of the industry, it looks to me like Apple is selling upgrades pretty close to their cost (cost being manufacturing+overhead, not just manufacturing). Any profit they make seems to be minimal at best. Break even looks more likely. Anyone with any sense of reality can't ask for anything more (would you prefer going back to the days of the $1000 memory upgrade?) Personally, I'd happily pay a bit more if Apple would only set up a better support organization -- I'd love to get software upgrades from them instead of trying to find which dealer has what version of an upgrade, and what it will take for them to part with it. Microsoft deals with its customers, so do most other software houses -- why can't Apple? (end gripe) chuq -- :From the lofty realms of Castle Plaid: Chuq Von Rospach chuq%plaid@sun.COM FidoNet: 125/84 CompuServe: 73317,635 {decwrl,decvax,hplabs,ihnp4,pyramid,seismo,ucbvax}!sun!plaid!chuq The first rule of magic is simple. Don't waste your time waving your hands and hoping when a rock or a club will do -- McCloctnik the Lucid
jimb@amdcad.UUCP (Jim Budler) (04/10/86)
In article <13041@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> mazlack@ernie.berkeley.edu.UUCP (Lawrence J. Mazlack) writes: > >> >>If you think *thats* bad, try the mathematics of buying a Macintosh XL >>for $3999, then trading it for a Mac+ for $1499, not counting the >>$600 512K memory board which doesn't have any trade-in value at all. >>Not that we have that much choice, the XL is too slow and has no sound >>generation. The question for the day is "How much did you pay for your Mac+??" >> Kelton Flinn > >The analogy that several people posted to me is: > >How would you like to buy a GM car (a complete Lisa aka XL costed about that >much: Lisa + memory board + software + printer) and then be told six months >later by GM that (a) they have decided that making your car was a mistake, >(b) they will do their best to ignore its existence, and (c) if you want >a new, smaller one you can give them another $1499. > >In point of fact auto makers do not do this. When a model is abandoned, they >usually establish a 10-15 year supply of parts for it. Ditto when an auto >mfg goes out of business. It is still possible to buy Kaiser and Studebaker >parts. Do not do what. In point of fact they do (a) and (c)... all your examples were concerned with (b). And nowhere have I seen anyone from Apple say that you cannot buy spare parts for your Lisa. They have said they intend no further development of Lisa. Ford intends no further development of the Edsel. They would let you trade it in with addition of money, on something they do support. -- Jim Budler Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. (408) 749-5806 Usenet: {ucbvax,decwrl,ihnp4,allegra,intelca}!amdcad!jimb Compuserve: 72415,1200
phil@ruulab.UUCP (Phil Ruff) (04/14/86)
chuq, You can deal directly with Apple in getting your upgrades. I went to my dealer to get some upgrades and they coulld not be bothed so they gave me the below and told me to send in the original I wanted upgraded. I did so, after making backups, of MacWrite & MacPaint, System Disk, ProDOS User's Disk(Apple //) and Apple Access //. With in the week I recieved the System Disk, ProDOS User's disk and Apple Access. Now I got versions as follows: System 2.0 Finder 4.1 DA/Font Mover 1.5 ProDOS 1.1.1 Basic 1.1 Filer 1.1 Convert 1.2 The next week I recieve the MacPaint and Write disk. MacWrite 2.2 MacPaint 1.3 Finder 1.1g From this I would suggest that you define what you want back in a note. I beleive I assumed a little to much. The address is: Apple Media Exchange Program P.O. Box 2114 Cupertino, CA 95015 I hope this helps. We're all in this together, Phil
mrl@oddjob.UUCP (Scott R. Anderson) (04/15/86)
In article <3472@sun.uucp> chuq@sun.uucp (Chuq Von Rospach) writes: >> In point of fact auto makers do not do this. When a model is abandoned, they >> usually establish a 10-15 year supply of parts for it. Ditto when an auto >> mfg goes out of business. It is still possible to buy Kaiser and Studebaker >> parts. > >Have you looked at prices for parts for abandoned models? In my earlier days >I owned a Chevy Corvair (definitely an abandoned model). When I had to >replace a rear brake tail lens (a 4 inch piece of molded plastic, color red) >the Chevy dealer was happy to do so. For $35 each, with a three week wait >while they figured out which warehouse it was in. I hate to tell you this, Chuq, but my Corvair is still running fine, and it's a '65! And I can get tail lenses for $5. How do I do it? Well, I certainly don't go to a GM dealer. It just so happens that Corvairs were popular cars. And enough people like them and continue to drive them that independent suppliers have sprung up to supply all of those Corvair-specific parts like exhaust pipes, transmissions, etc. Some parts (such as tires, fan belts, oil filters) are commonly available because they used by other cars as well, and some (such as entire engines) are scavenged from "parts cars". I get all of these items from a mechanic who does nothing but repair, restore, and race Corvairs. I think the analogy to computers is pretty close: you can already get replacement CPU's, memory, disks, etc. from vendors other than Apple; things like ROM you could scavenge. All it takes is enough people who like a particular computer to generate the means to maintain them, and not by the original manufacturer. For example, I have seen ads from people who repair so-called "orphan" computers such as the Osborne. There is one major difference between computers and cars, though, that makes it unlikely that people will hang on to their old computers, and that is that the technology is changing so fast. So, while I still drive a 21-year-old car, not many people are going to have Commodore 64's in a few years. It's just too cheap to get something quite a bit better. In twenty years, the Macintosh may be passe, and only collectors will own them! >This is all beside the point, really. What is the point is whether or not >Apple is 'doing right' by its customers. People who buy machines and then >expect Apple to give them upgrades free are unrealistic. You have to >ignore the current price of the machine in your calculations -- if you >waited until now to buy it, you would have saved money, but look at all >those things you wouldn't have gotten done. Call it 'rent', call it >whatever, by buying the machine then you got use out of it. I have to agree. I think Apple is providing a service by supplying upgrades. If you don't want it now, well, you still have a useful piece of equipment (though no longer at the cutting edge :-), and there will be alternatives to repairing it to make it last longer. And a few years down the road, the price of the current upgrade will probably buy you an even better computer. -- Scott Anderson ihnp4!oddjob!kaos!sra
hammen@gumby.UUCP (Marvin the Paranoid Android) (04/18/86)
In article <11328@amdcad.UUCP>, jimb@amdcad.UUCP (Jim Budler) writes: > >How would you like to buy a GM car (a complete Lisa aka XL costed about that > >much: Lisa + memory board + software + printer) and then be told six months > >later by GM that (a) they have decided that making your car was a mistake, > >(b) they will do their best to ignore its existence, and (c) if you want > >a new, smaller one you can give them another $1499. > > > >In point of fact auto makers do not do this. When a model is abandoned, they > >usually establish a 10-15 year supply of parts for it. Ditto when an auto > >mfg goes out of business. It is still possible to buy Kaiser and Studebaker > >parts. > > Do not do what. In point of fact they do (a) and (c)... all your examples > were concerned with (b). And nowhere have I seen anyone from Apple > say that you cannot buy spare parts for your Lisa. They have said they > intend no further development of Lisa. > > Ford intends no further development of the Edsel. They would let you trade > it in with addition of money, on something they do support. > -- > Jim Budler > Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. One of the problems I, and many other Lisa owners have, is a problem with sofftware (specifically, the hard-disk trashing habit of MacWorks). It was only a year ago that the Lisa (oops, Mac XL) was being touted by Apple as THE hard-disk solution for the Macintosh--the heart of the Macintosh Office. Now, today, try to get ahold of someone at Apple to even mention the problem and to complain about it. I've talked to everyone from sales reps to service technicians, and each one of those persons has said, 'Gee, that's too bad. But have you heard about our Lisa upgrade policy?' I get the distinct impression from Apple that this is the only kind of software support we will get: if we upgrade to the latest model, we won't lose all our data. No one knows anything if there is/will be a new version of MacWorks that will correct the problem or if there will be an HFS-compatible MacWorks ( Odd, isn't it, that one of the few hard disks that doesn't support the new Apple file system is made by Apple?). I guess I could understand this giving up on the MacWorks problem if my machine were five years old, but geez, it's not even been a year since its cancellation. I still say: look at the Mac product line: it's only a little more than 2 years old, and Apple has already gone through the Lisa, the Mac 128 and the Mac 512 (offering upgrade paths for each). How do they expect to get loyal customers when every year or so they completely revamp their product line? (Of course, let's not forget what Apple told businesses upon the introduction of the Lisa--'It's the first machine in a family that will last 10 years.' Of course, those were the days when Apple hyped its 'Lisa Technology'--do you think you'll ever hear anyone from Apple say those words again?). Sorry for the long and disorganized flame, but try to understand the frustrations of a Lisa owner. You'd be a little upset as well. Robert J. Hammen {seismo,ihnp4,allegra,harvard,topaz}!uwvax!puff!hammen UW-Madison CS Dept. hammen@puff.wisc.edu UW-Madison Plasma Physics Dept. plasma%wiscpsl.bitnet {@wiscvm.wisc.edu}
chuq@sun.UUCP (04/20/86)
> No one knows anything if there is/will be a new version of MacWorks that will > correct the problem or if there will be an HFS-compatible MacWorks Based on the info I've seen on Compuserve, MacWorks won't be upgraded to support the new Roms or HFS. > I still say: look at the Mac product line: it's only a little more > than 2 years old, and Apple has already gone through the Lisa, the Mac 128 > and the Mac 512 (offering upgrade paths for each). I think the reports of the death of the 512K are significantly overexaggerated -- it is alive and well and a strong page of Apple's sales philosophy. The Lisa was, frankly, a price/performance lemon. The 128K was an example of Steve Job's misguided attempt to force reality into the mold he saw for it. There simply never should have been a 128K Mac. Apple has made a couple of mistakes (the Lisa price, the Apple III, and the 128K Mac). More importantly, Apple keeps looking for ways out of their mistakes with a minimum of pain for their customers -- they COULD have just left the Lisa people out to dry, for example -- many computer companies would have (I haven't seen IBM offering to trade in PCJr for a real computer recently...). They also seem to be learning from their mistakes, and aren't repeating them. A year ago, 256K of memory cost a grand, remember? Apple isn't perfect, but they could be a LOT worse. A company that size can't please everyone, but they are trying to do what they can for who they can. chuq -- :From the lofty realms of Castle Plaid: Chuq Von Rospach chuq%plaid@sun.COM FidoNet: 125/84 CompuServe: 73317,635 {decwrl,decvax,hplabs,ihnp4,pyramid,seismo,ucbvax}!sun!plaid!chuq The first rule of magic is simple. Don't waste your time waving your hands and hoping when a rock or a club will do -- McCloctnik the Lucid
kff@kesmai.UUCP (Kelton Flinn) (04/27/86)
Well, the Mac+ has arrived, we carted the Lisa out with a fork lift :-) and handed over the extra $1500. Do I regret it? NO WAY! After 3 days with the Mac+ and HFS, I can't beleive I used to actually get work done on the Lisa. Instead of 5 minutes to start the machine, and 2 minutes to get into the Finder, we are talking about 15 sec. to start up, and 2-6 seconds for the Finder, depending on the contents of the disk cache. Its a bitch we didn't wait a while and buy one of these things new, since we never got $5000 use out of the Lisa, but thats the way the cookie crumbles. Perhaps it would have been nicer if Apple had upgraded the Lisa to handle HFS, etc, but now we have the sound generator (it talks!) and I can realistically consider carting the machine home with me (without the HD20) for some extra work/games. Tossing $0.02 into the C discussion, Consulair C 4.1 works very well under HFS. All the folders I had set up under MFS transfered directly, I ran the Path Manager, and *poof* the program compiled and linked. As far as portability goes, I have a graphics-intensive application I am developing that is routinely transfered between the Mac, and a PC using Lattice C, that compiles and runs on both machines with a few #IFDEF's. Don't have Quickdraw on the PC, of course, so the output isn't quite as nice, and Lattice is *slow*, but the program works. Both compilers seem to be pretty close to bug free. That 512K Lisa memory board is still available, by the way, we don't seem to have a crowd beating the doors down to get it... Kelton Flinn ..!decvax!mcnc!ncsu!uvacs!kesmai!kff