[net.micro.mac] Problem with System 3.X

baron@runx.OZ (Jason Haines) (04/19/86)

Ever since I began using System version 3.1, it crashes during disk i/o, with
my own programs, with MacWrite, with MacPaint, MacDraw , ResEdit, and Font/DA
mover. The crash appears as a vertical band of garbage on the screen.
Any ideas?


/* Jason Haines            STD:  (02) 73-4444
 * ElecEng Undergraduate   ISD: +61 2 73-4444
 * 73 Davidson Avenue      ACSnet: baron@runx
 * Concord NSW 2137        CSNET:  baron@runx.oz
 * AUSTRALIA               ARPA:   baron%runx.oz@seismo.css.gov
 * 
 * UUCP:
 *   {enea,hplabs,mcvax,prlb2,seismo,ubc-vision,ukc}!munnari!runx.oz!baron
 */

akk2@ur-tut.UUCP (A Kacker) (04/23/86)

In article <1035@runx.OZ> baron@runx.OZ (Jason Haines) writes:
>
>Ever since I began using System version 3.1, it crashes during disk i/o, with
>my own programs, with MacWrite, with MacPaint, MacDraw , ResEdit, and Font/DA
>mover. The crash appears as a vertical band of garbage on the screen.
>Any ideas?
>
>
>/* Jason Haines            STD:  (02) 73-4444
> * ElecEng Undergraduate   ISD: +61 2 73-4444

Apple recommends in its December supplement notes, that one should use
System 3.1.1 and not 3.1. You should be able to get a copy of System 3.1.1
from your friendly Apple dealer. It is on the System Installation disk in the
Dec supplement. The system version on the Printer Installer disk is alas 3.1.
Replacing this with 3.1.1 does not work, but I'm sure one could patch the
Installer to get around this.

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A.Kacker
UUCP    : {allegra|seismo|decvax}!rochester!ur-tut!akk2
BITNET  : HNUC@UORVM
=========================================================================

werner@ut-dillo (05/01/86)

In article <247@ur-tut.UUCP>, akk2@ur-tut.UUCP (A Kacker) writes:
> In article <1035@runx.OZ> baron@runx.OZ (Jason Haines) writes:
> >
> >Ever since I began using System version 3.1, it crashes during disk i/o, with
> 
> Apple recommends in its December supplement notes, that one should use
> System 3.1.1 and not 3.1. You should be able to get a copy of System 3.1.1
> from your friendly Apple dealer. It is on the System Installation disk in the
> Dec supplement. ....

Before we get everyone mad when their "friendly Apple dealer" refuses to
hand out anything but 3.0, let's make it clear that Apple does not provide
their dealers with Supplements nor have they instructed them nor given them
permission to distribute anything but what comes with the Mac+ and the
ROM/disk/memory upgrade, mainly Finder-5.1, System-3.0, Font/DA-Mover-3.0

...which is a crying shame (please correct me if I'm wrong) !!!

Of course, a dealer could (for money) order the Tech Notes and Supplements
from Apple, and, yes, in the docs of the 85/12 Supplement Apple tells
the reader (developers, mainly) to use the accompanying latest Finder and
System (5.2/3.1.1) with the program-products that they sell (if they have
a license to do so), however a quick check at the local consortium store
(supposedly sold more MACs than anyone else so far) showed that they
a) neither have the Supplement  b) nor are they routinely providing their
customers with anything but the Apple System-Disks that come with the
hardware - (special requests by 'knowledgable' customers may be granted -
but I'm not sure that they always have the 'latest and best', besides, it's
not really done as a policy but rather as a "favour" by and to individuals)

	---Werner  'if you find a local dealer who gives you support,
			be willing to pay a few $s over the mail-order price,
			otherwise *DON'T* ...'

PS:  I meant to mention that System-3.2 has been sighted ....Rumour has it
	that it's *BETTER*, *FASTER*, *SMALLER* (well, maybe not the latter)
	all kind of bugs got fixed ..... will all the Ghostbusters with
	nerves and a "good hard-disk back-up discipline" please step forward?!
	Me?  I'm still a nervous wreck from last time when I had doubts that
	I could recover my HD....

werner@ut-dillo (05/01/86)

one additional quote from the Dec-85 Supplement: 

[from "About the Supplement, page 7]

Except those marked with an asterisk ...
	[refering to Alpha-versions of files
"Hard Disk 20" and an Installer Script "External Drive" that allows use of
	an external 800K-drive in an "old-ROM" 512K MAC ] 
...all files on this disk are available for licensing.  If you have a license
for the Macintosh System Disk, your license automatically extends to the
software on this disk [ meaning Finder-5.2, System-3.1.1, etc.] ...

the question is, does an Apple dealer have a software license or not?

I'd suspect it's one thing to sell hardware which includes Apple-software,
but handing out software upgrades is something totally different (to those
in business and dealing with lawyers, anyway)

hammen@puff.UUCP (Robert J. Hammen) (05/02/86)

In article <214@ut-dillo.UUCP>, werner@ut-dillo.UUCP (Werner Uhrig) writes:

> > Apple recommends in its December supplement notes, that one should use
> > System 3.1.1 and not 3.1. You should be able to get a copy of System 3.1.1
> > from your friendly Apple dealer. It is on the System Installation disk in the
> > Dec supplement. ....

	Yesterday, in talking with a couple of the people at our school's 
Microcomputer Information Center, I found out that, according to what the local
Apple people have told them, the official Apple Finder/System is Finder 5.1 
and System 3.1.  They showed me a sheet, from Apple, of all of the current
version numbers.  When I asked them why Apple was then shipping 5.2 and 3.1.1
out with the MacPascal 2.0 upgrade, they said that Apple had claimed it was a 
mistake.  I really can't understand this.  Wasn't 3.1 the 'deadly system' that
no one was supposed to use (according to InfoWorld a couple of weeks back)?
Is this true?  Is the Apple Chicago office screwed up, or what?  Sheesh.
There's gotta be a better way of letting people know about upgrades/bugs. 
You have no idea how many people I've seen show up in the MIC who know
absolutely nothing about the existence of *Finder 4.1* and MacWrite 4.5.
Anyway, would someone at Apple be kind enough to let us know what the 
*official* release version is?  The MIC here will only give out 5.1/3.1,
and I suspect that Apple's confusion on this matter is also the reason why
most dealers won't give out the new system.

> 
> PS:  I meant to mention that System-3.2 has been sighted ....Rumour has it
> 	that it's *BETTER*, *FASTER*, *SMALLER* (well, maybe not the latter)
> 	all kind of bugs got fixed ..... will all the Ghostbusters with
> 	nerves and a "good hard-disk back-up discipline" please step forward?!
> 	Me?  I'm still a nervous wreck from last time when I had doubts that
> 	I could recover my HD....

	I have a copy of System 3.2b4 (I think that's the right version) and
Finder 5.3(??) which I got at the MacExpo in Chicago.  Although I'm not going
to use either until they're officially released (I've been happy with 5.2/3.1.1
so far), they seem to work ok, although I don't think they got smaller.....
	At one of the booths, they were running one of the new system versions,
and they found a nice bug.... Seems that the standard file package wouldn't 
open up documents with any program, and so the only way to open documents was
to double-click on them.  All the more reason *NOT* to play with these things 
until they're officially released.
	By the way, ResEdit 1.0D12 exists (it was floating around at the show).
I've got a copy, and have used it quite a bit without any problems. Switcher
4.9, however, seems to have some problems, possibly with MacServe. And, while
we're on the topic of versions, Red Ryder 9.0 is out to registered users, and
it has problems with XMODEM file transfers timing out--seems that the 
throughput was increased so much so that RR is too fast for most boards (this
was verified by a number of people from The Rest of Us, the Chicago area
user's group).


Robert J. Hammen     {seismo,allegra,ihnp4,harvard,topaz}!uwvax!puff!hammen
UW-Madison CS Dept.   hammen@puff.wisc.edu
UW-Madison Plasma Physics Dept.     plasma%wiscpsl.bitnet {@wiscvm.wisc.edu}
----
Working here is like being in a nightmare.  You'd like to get out of it, but
you need the sleep.

jmm@pavepaws.berkeley.edu (James M. Moore) (05/04/86)

Last I heard (at the Berkeley Macintosh UG meeting on 2 May) was that System
3.2 and Finder 5.3 are supposed to be coming out approximately the middle of
this month.  They will be with us for a LONG time.  Seems like Apple's finally
realized they need to make sure software works before they release it.  BTW,
all those d1234... versions of software are only beta test (and someone said
they're supposed to be internal Apple only, but I don't know how strictly that
is supposed to be enforced.)  If you're dealer's not giving out 3.1.1 and 5.2,
they're not doing their job.  Find another one.

James

briand@tekig4.UUCP (Brian Diehm) (05/06/86)

>If you're dealer's not giving out 3.1.1 and 5.2,
>they're not doing their job.  Find another one.

Hear hear.  My dealer, within walking distance of the local Apple office,
has stated that Apple approves of the distribution of 3.1.1 and Finder 5.2.
It is an "official" release for those requesting bug fixes.

-Brian Diehm
Tektronix, Inc.

dubois@uwmacc.UUCP (Paul DuBois) (05/07/86)

> Seems like Apple's finally
> realized they need to make sure software works before they release it.  BTW,
> all those d1234... versions of software are only beta test (and someone said
> they're supposed to be internal Apple only, but I don't know how strictly that
> is supposed to be enforced.)

Probably not too strictly, given that ResEdit 1.0D7 is distributed
with LightspeedC...

-- 
                                                                    |
Paul DuBois     {allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!dubois        --+--
                                                                    |
Doth the hawk fly by thy wisdom, and stretch her wings              |
toward the south?                        Job 39:26

dad@mit-vax.UUCP (David Duff) (05/14/86)

In article <646@tekig4.UUCP> briand@tekig4.UUCP (Brian Diehm) writes:
>>If you're dealer's not giving out 3.1.1 and 5.2,
>>they're not doing their job.  Find another one.
>
>Hear hear.  My dealer, within walking distance of the local Apple office,
>has stated that Apple approves of the distribution of 3.1.1 and Finder 5.2.
>It is an "official" release for those requesting bug fixes.

I have had terrible luck with Apple dealers in my (Boston) area.  I'd
like to know if others have had similar problems.  

I've been trying to get an upgrade for my Macterminal program for
several months now and have had (almost) no success.  At one point, in
early April, I had visited a total of five Apple dealers and could not
come up with a copy of the upgrade.  One dealer was about to go out of
business, one had just gotten back in to business, but  the others
seemed to be completely oblivious to the fact that the upgrade existed
(It came out in mid-January, as I recall).  When I finally found a
dealer who had the upgrade, HE INSISTED THAT I PAY HIM FOR THE
UPGRADE!!  Needless to say, I was pissed off. 

I've had similar experiences with dealers in the past.  I once went
out in search of a replacement battery for my mac, only to have people
in three different stores insist that there was no battery in the mac
at all.  I can't believe the incompetence of the computer salespeople
that I've come across in this area.  

I later bumped in to an Apple rep at a demo and told her about what I
had observed and she didn't really seem to care much about it either
way.  I asked her whether it was "legal" for that dealer to charge for
the upgrade that was supposed to be free and she said that it was ok
with Apple.  She said Apple encouraged dealers to provide the upgrades
for free but could not force them.  

What I'd like to know is this:  1) Have other people had similar
problems with incompetent or uncooperative dealers?  2) Does Apple
really not care about this?  3) Can anyone suggest a good Apple dealer
in the Boston/Cambridge area?

Thanks.

ix21@sdcc6.UUCP (David Whiteman) (05/15/86)

My Apple dealer recently mailed my a post card annoucing a system
upgrade -- he is distributing version 3.2b1 of the system.  Now I
thought under Apple's new numbering system that the "b" designates a
beta test version, but my dealer states that this is an official
version.  I noticed that the "D"  in ResEdit version 1.0D7 is upper
case while the "b" is lower case.  Does Apple's new numbering
system, D for development, A for alpha test, B for beta test, not
apply in this case?  Or is Apple distributing an official beta test
version?  My dealer told me that even version 3.1.1 has bugs.  How
long do the new ROM/ Mac Plus have to wait before a bug free system
is available?  




-- 
----
David Whiteman,
University of California, San Diego 

jimb@amdcad.UUCP (Jim Budler) (05/26/86)

In article <214@ut-dillo> werner%ut-dillo@ut-dillo.UUCP writes:
>Before we get everyone mad when their "friendly Apple dealer" refuses to
>hand out anything but 3.0, let's make it clear that Apple does not provide
>their dealers with Supplements nor have they instructed them nor given them
>permission to distribute anything but what comes with the Mac+ and the
>ROM/disk/memory upgrade, mainly Finder-5.1, System-3.0, Font/DA-Mover-3.0
>
>...which is a crying shame (please correct me if I'm wrong) !!!
>
>Of course, a dealer could (for money) order the Tech Notes and Supplements
>from Apple, and, yes, in the docs of the 85/12 Supplement Apple tells
>the reader (developers, mainly) to use the accompanying latest Finder and
>System (5.2/3.1.1) with the program-products that they sell (if they have
>a license to do so), however a quick check at the local consortium store
>(supposedly sold more MACs than anyone else so far) showed that they
>a) neither have the Supplement  b) nor are they routinely providing their
>customers with anything but the Apple System-Disks that come with the
>hardware - (special requests by 'knowledgable' customers may be granted -
>but I'm not sure that they always have the 'latest and best', besides, it's
>not really done as a policy but rather as a "favour" by and to individuals)

For the record my 128KROM/drive upgrade installed last weekend came with
Macintosh Plus System Tools. This contained system 3.1, finder 5.2, Font/DA
Mover 3.1, Imagewriter 2.2.

I assume that as of a week ago, this is the official supported level.

I've never had a problem with system 3.1, and the information I've gotten
is that the problems it has only exist with CERTAIN, VERY LARGE applications.
-- 
 Jim Budler
 Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.
 (408) 749-5806
 Usenet: {ucbvax,decwrl,ihnp4,allegra,intelca}!amdcad!jimb
 Compuserve:	72415,1200

jimb@amdcad.UUCP (Jim Budler) (05/26/86)

In article <2611@sdcc6.UUCP> ix21@sdcc6.UUCP (David Whiteman) writes:
>apply in this case?  Or is Apple distributing an official beta test
>version?  My dealer told me that even version 3.1.1 has bugs.  How
>long do the new ROM/ Mac Plus have to wait before a bug free system
>is available?  
>
>
I don't know, but I'd guess it would be about the same amount of time
until people get a bug free Unix, a bug free PC-DOS, and a bug free
(add your favorite computer program here).
-- 
 Jim Budler
 Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.
 (408) 749-5806
 Usenet: {ucbvax,decwrl,ihnp4,allegra,intelca}!amdcad!jimb
 Compuserve:	72415,1200

werner@ut-ngp.UUCP (Werner Uhrig) (05/28/86)

> For the record my 128KROM/drive upgrade installed last weekend came with
> Macintosh Plus System Tools. This contained system 3.1, finder 5.2, Font/DA
> Mover 3.1, Imagewriter 2.2.
>
> I assume that as of a week ago, this is the official supported level.
>
> I've never had a problem with system 3.1, and the information I've gotten
> is that the problems it has only exist with CERTAIN, VERY LARGE applications.

Apple *OFFICIALLY* discourages the use of System-3.1 (that's been printed in
many places) - and I'd bet you can't find a single Apple-employee that would
use System-3.1 himself.

Finder 5.3 and System 3.2 prereleases seem to be faster and pretty reliable
with my working-set of programs (no Laserwriter, no AppleTalk, no SCSI)

sam@cci632.UUCP (Sam Mantel) (05/28/86)

In article <2611@sdcc6.UUCP>, ix21@sdcc6.UUCP writes:
> version?  My dealer told me that even version 3.1.1 has bugs.  How
> long do the new ROM/ Mac Plus have to wait before a bug free system
> is available?  
> 
> 
The cost of providing a "bug free system" is infinity.  If you would like
to pay for such a system, I am sure Apple would like to talk to you.

Sam Mantel -- Roch, NY

jimb@amdcad.UUCP (Jim Budler) (06/01/86)

In article <3453@ut-ngp.UUCP> werner@ngp.UUCP (PUT YOUR NAME HERE) writes:
>> For the record my 128KROM/drive upgrade installed last weekend came with
>> Macintosh Plus System Tools. This contained system 3.1, finder 5.2, Font/DA
>> Mover 3.1, Imagewriter 2.2.
>>
>> I assume that as of a week ago, this is the official supported level.
>>
>> I've never had a problem with system 3.1, and the information I've gotten
>> is that the problems it has only exist with CERTAIN, VERY LARGE applications.
>
>Apple *OFFICIALLY* discourages the use of System-3.1 (that's been printed in
>many places) - and I'd bet you can't find a single Apple-employee that would
>use System-3.1 himself.
>

That's nice, where is it?
Apple's *OFFICIAL* statement, posted on Compuserve Macintosh Developers
group said 3.0 was DANGEROUS, 3.1 had bugs related to memory management
of large programs (they bomb), and that 3.1.1 fixed THOSE bugs.

It's real nice that Apple employees don't use 3.1,
but are you sure they use 3.2? THEY could be on 3.4 for all we know, OR
CARE!

The latest DISTRIBUTED AT A DEALER WITH HARDWARE ON A DISK MULTIPLY
GENERATED BY APPLE (no hand printed labels, please) system/finder 
that I have heard of is 3.1/5.2.

>Finder 5.3 and System 3.2 prereleases seem to be faster and pretty reliable
                           ^^^^^^^^^^^
>with my working-set of programs (no Laserwriter, no AppleTalk, no SCSI)

Weren't we talking about OFFICIAL?

I haven't been able to get a copy of 3.1.1 system, let alone 3.2.

Go suck an egg.
-- 
 Jim Budler
 Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.
 (408) 749-5806
 Usenet: {ucbvax,decwrl,ihnp4,allegra,intelca}!amdcad!jimb
 Compuserve:	72415,1200

jimb@amdcad.UUCP (Jim Budler) (06/04/86)

In article <11854@amdcad.UUCP> jimb@amdcad.UUCP (Jim Budler) writes:
>In article <3453@ut-ngp.UUCP> werner@ngp.UUCP (PUT YOUR NAME HERE) writes:
Statements concerning the advisability of using System 3.1 or 3.1.1.
To which I replied:
>
>Go suck an egg.
>-- 
> Jim Budler

My words, and I must live by them.

Werner sent me a nice gentlemanly, *Private*, reply to my uncalled for,
and ill-mannered statement above. I have sent a short (too short) apology
to him, but on reflection decided that a public attack deserved a public
apology. Therefore:

	I'm sorry, Werner.
-- 
 Jim Budler
 Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.
 (408) 749-5806
 Usenet: {ucbvax,decwrl,ihnp4,allegra,intelca}!amdcad!jimb
 Compuserve:	72415,1200