zaccone@psuvax1.UUCP (Rick Zaccone) (09/13/86)
I have a DataFrame 20, and in general, I am very pleased with it. So
far, it has been everything that people have said it would be -- easy
to install, reliable, etc. However, it has one "feature" that I am not
pleased with. Whenever I turn it on, it takes 30 seconds to a minute
before the disk even begins to spin. This is *almost* always true, but
there are times when it starts right away.
This leads to the following question. The manual says that the "disk
will take a long time to reboot at the next startup" if you turn the
computer off while in the system. They recommend turning it off after
having selected Shut Down from the Special menu. I always select Shut
Down before turning off the disk, and it *still* takes a long time to
start (and yes, I always shut it off before the smiling Mac appears).
Am I doing something wrong, or is this the way it should work?
--
Rick Zaccone Pennsylvania State University
CSNET: zaccone@penn-state BITNET: zaccone@psuvax1
UUCP: {akgua,allegra,burdvax,ihnp4}!psuvax1!zacconewille@hpccc.HP.COM (Ross Wille) (09/16/86)
> I have a DataFrame 20, and in general, I am very pleased with it.... > However, it has one "feature" that I am not pleased with. Whenever I > turn it on, it takes 30 seconds to a minute before the disk even begins > to spin. This is *almost* always true, but there are times when it > starts right away. DataFrame 20's should always start to spin up as soon as power is turned on. What happens if you shut-down improperly is that the disk to get accessed for several seconds before the system boots up. If the system is not shut down properly, the data on the drive may be in an inconsistent state. The system detects this by way of a status bit at boot time and checks out the drive before running the finder. The blinking lights on the front of the drive (in the little crack) should tell you whether or not the drive is being accessed. If indeed your drive is not spinning up immediately (whirring noises) you have problems. I have 2 DataFrames and they have never failed to spin up. Ross Wille - HP Labs "Undetectable errors are treated as if no error occurred" - IBM Manual
korn@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Peter "Arrgh" Korn) (09/17/86)
In article <2275@psuvax1.UUCP> zaccone@psuvax1.UUCP (Rick Zaccone) writes: >I have a DataFrame 20, ... >Whenever I turn it on, it takes 30 seconds to a minute >before the disk even begins to spin. This is *almost* always true, but >there are times when it starts right away. I've found this to be the case as well. From what I understand, most of the 30 sec. are needed for the drive to spin up (I'd think it could do that in 15 sec. tops), and for a bit of error detection. I've never timed it, but the five Dataframe 20's that I've used all behaved as you've described. What about other drives? Anyone out on the net have a hard drive that boots up *real*fast*? Or is ~20-30 sec. the norm? Peter ----- Peter "Arrgh" Korn I know lots of honorary jews! Why, korn@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU some of my very best friends {decvax,dual,hplabs,sdcsvax,ulysses}!ucbvax!korn are honorary jews!
werner@ut-ngp.UUCP (Werner Uhrig) (09/17/86)
> I always select Shut > Down before turning off the disk, and it *still* takes a long time to > start (and yes, I always shut it off before the smiling Mac appears). > Am I doing something wrong, or is this the way it should work? I had noted the same problem and someon (I highly respect) said to not turn the DF off until AFTER the Mac completes the boot - to my great consternation that seems to work ...
phil@sivax.UUCP (Phil Hunt) (09/18/86)
Hello, The Micah AT-20 seems to have the same symptoms, but after shutdown I cannot turn off the drive without the whole computer (AT-20 is internal). The smiling Mac comes up, but does not read the drive for 30-45 seconds I wonder if it is the same cause Phil Hunt
dwb@well.UUCP (David W. Berry) (09/18/86)
As SuperMac states in the DataFrame manual you want to turn the mac and the DataFrame off before the mac starts rebooting and after selecting shutdown. If you don't it's going to assume the mac crashed the next time you boot and go through a time consuming procedure to rebuild the allocation tables and such. What this means is that the correct procedure for shutting down your mac and hard disk is: User: Reaches for power switch User: Selects shutdown from menu Mac: Goes "BEEP" User: Turns of Hard Disk Mac: Shows Disk ICON and starts trying to reboot User: Turns off mac It really does work and it really does make booting the next time much quicker. -- David W. Berry dwb@well.uucp dwb@Delphi dwb@GEnie 293-0752@408.MaBell
stevens@inuxm.UUCP (W Stevens) (09/19/86)
> In article <2275@psuvax1.UUCP> zaccone@psuvax1.UUCP (Rick Zaccone) writes: > >I have a DataFrame 20, ... > >Whenever I turn it on, it takes 30 seconds to a minute > >before the disk even begins to spin. This is *almost* always true, but > >there are times when it starts right away. Before it begins to SPIN? This sounds like a hardware problem! > I've found this to be the case as well. From what I understand, most > of the 30 sec. are needed for the drive to spin up (I'd think it could > do that in 15 sec. tops), and for a bit of error detection. > > I've never timed it, but the five Dataframe 20's that I've used all > behaved as you've described. What about other drives? Anyone out on > the net have a hard drive that boots up *real*fast*? Or is ~20-30 sec. > the norm? > > Peter > ----- > Peter "Arrgh" Korn I know lots of honorary jews! Why, > korn@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU some of my very best friends > {decvax,dual,hplabs,sdcsvax,ulysses}!ucbvax!korn are honorary jews! Mine never takes more than 10 seconds or so to go from flashing question mark to smiling Mac, unless I power down or reboot without going through shut down (in the Finder's Special menu). When I shut down, I turn the DataFrame off AFTER the Mac beeps and BEFORE the disk-with-flashing-question-mark appears. If you turn it off after the smiling Mac appears, then you'll have to wait next time you boot up while some data structures are rebuilt on the disk (the volume allocation bitmap maybe?). -- Scott Stevens AT&T (Consumer Products) Indianapolis, Indiana, USA UUCP: inuxc!inuxm!stevens
rcopm@yabbie.rmit.oz (Paul Menon) (09/24/86)
> Mine never takes more than 10 seconds or so to go from flashing question mark > to smiling Mac, unless I power down or reboot without going through shut down > (in the Finder's Special menu). When I shut down, I turn the DataFrame off > AFTER the Mac beeps and BEFORE the disk-with-flashing-question-mark appears. > If you turn it off after the smiling Mac appears, then you'll have to wait > next time you boot up while some data structures are rebuilt on the disk > (the volume allocation bitmap maybe?). I have been amused as to how people shutdown their Dataframes for some time now, and can offer may own humorous, yet possibly sane method. This is how I interpreted SuperMac's instructions, and it seems the safest. * Select the "ShutDown" option as per normal. * WAIT FOR THE THING TO REBOOT COMPLETELY!!! ie, wait for the desktop to appear and the system has subsided into a state of tranquility. * Switch the DataFrame off. * Switch the Mac off. (The order of the last two actions is unimportant) For your further amusement, here are the reasons why I think this method is safe/fast/obvious. * Nobody in their right mind would suggest an action that is only possible within a two or 3 second time window. * The consequences of missing this window are possibly horrendous. Imagine switching the hard disk off halfway through a write as the Mac is coming up to air. I have not heard of any manufacturer suggesting this procedure, ie switching a hard disk off while it is possibly doing something. This includes SuperMac. Maybe I didn't read their instructions as closely as others have. * Using my interpretation, the Dataframe ALWAYS boots up in a matter of seconds. ALWAYS! * Now for what I think happens. * If someone doesn't use the SHUTDOWN procedure, then the Dataframe will possibly be in an UNUPDATED state, ie, there is a bit of housekeeping necessary such as recovering what windows are open, the state of the desktop, etc... * Selecting the SHUTDOWN procedure, waiting for the desktop to appear, and then switching the disk off (without doing anything to modify what the desktop looks like, or even accessing the disk) ensures that the disk will reboot in an UPDATED state. Simple, logical, no? Maybe it is too simple, but that's why I am happy with it. All this stuff about tags, bitmaps and hoo-ha can be left to the experts. * If someone misses the time window, ie the Dataframe is accessed again before the user can switch it off, then the next time a bootup occurs, recovery may be necessary, if one is possible! this is possibly why it then takes a long time to come up. It is statistically improbable for someone to always catch that window. (P.S. I congratulate SuperMac for creating a disk/software package that puts up with such treatment) Paul Menon. Dept of Communication & Electronic Engineering, Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology, 124 Latrobe St, Melbourne, 3000, Australia ACSnet: rcopm@yabbie UUCP: ...!seismo!munnari!yabbie.rmit.oz!rcopm CSNET: rcopm@yabbie.rmit.oz ARPA: rcopm%yabbie.rmit.oz@seismo BITNET: rcopm%yabbie.rmit.oz@CSNET-RELAY PHONE: +61 3 660 2619.
cole@sas.UUCP (Tom Cole) (09/25/86)
In response to questions about how fast drives boot up, a Hyperdrive (10 or 20mb) on every system I have used (512, 512e, Plus) goes from power-on to finder window in about 10 seconds, including time to install Macsbug. Spin-up is incredibly fast, with the "Welcome to..." appearing in about 3-5 seconds.
matt@locus.ucla.edu (Matthew J Weinstein) (09/26/86)
When shutting down my DF20, I wait til the screen goes black, and shut off the Mac (it's easy to reach). Then I turn off the DF at my leisure. No problems at all; the filesystem seems to be marked properly at reboot. - Matt
hazen@puff.wisc.edu (Tim Hazen) (09/26/86)
In article <337@yabbie.rmit.oz>, rcopm@yabbie.rmit.oz (Paul Menon) types: > > Mine never takes more than 10 seconds or so to go from flashing question mark > > to smiling Mac, unless I power down or reboot without going through shut down > > (in the Finder's Special menu). When I shut down, I turn the DataFrame off > > AFTER the Mac beeps and BEFORE the disk-with-flashing-question-mark appears. > > If you turn it off after the smiling Mac appears, then you'll have to wait > > next time you boot up while some data structures are rebuilt on the disk > > (the volume allocation bitmap maybe?). > > I have been amused as to how people shutdown their Dataframes for some > time now, and can offer may own humorous, yet possibly sane method. This is > how I interpreted SuperMac's instructions, and it seems the safest. > * Select the "ShutDown" option as per normal. > * WAIT FOR THE THING TO REBOOT COMPLETELY!!! ie, wait for the desktop > to appear and the system has subsided into a state of tranquility. > * Switch the DataFrame off. > * Switch the Mac off. > (The order of the last two actions is unimportant) First of all, I think it has been pointed out that you DO NOT want to turn off your Hard disk when the Mac has not been shut down (the next time you boot, it will take longer because the system was not shut down properly). But why are you people always shutting off your drives? General advice from every drive manufacturer are to keep your drive on always unless you are going to move your system or are going to be not using your Mac for 3-5 days. The stress of spinning up to 3600+ rpm's daily is far worse than leaving it on (My Apple ProFile I leave on 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, and have never had a problem. The same for the disk drives on the microvax I'm typing this on). I am also told that Apple doesn't recommend turning off the HD20 unless it won't be used for a week or you're moving it. Here is my shutdown procedure: 1) From the Finder, MiniFinder, WayStation, select 'Shut Down' 2) When the Mac beeps and as long as the screen is still black, shut off the Mac 3) Then, if you must, shut off the hard disk. > > For your further amusement, here are the reasons why I think this method is > safe/fast/obvious. > > * Nobody in their right mind would suggest an action that is only > possible within a two or 3 second time window. Oh yeah? > * The consequences of missing this window are possibly horrendous. > Imagine switching the hard disk off halfway through a write as the > Mac is coming up to air. This is why you shut off the Mac first, not the hard disk. > I have not heard of any manufacturer > suggesting this procedure, ie switching a hard disk off while it is > possibly doing something. This includes SuperMac. Maybe I didn't > read their instructions as closely as others have. The instructions for my drive (a Relax Technologies SCSI Hard 20 Plus) say to ALWAYS shut down, because, when this drive does a shutdown, it moves the heads to a 'parked' position. Another reason you don't want to wait until you get to the Finder again to shut down (the heads are no longer parked). > * Using my interpretation, the Dataframe ALWAYS boots up in a matter of > seconds. ALWAYS! > * Now for what I think happens. > * If someone doesn't use the SHUTDOWN procedure, then the > Dataframe will possibly be in an UNUPDATED state, But if you reboot to the Finder, even if you do nothing, and shut off the disk/drive, then the disk WILL be in an unupdated state the next time you want to boot (and it will take longer). Forgive me if I repeat myself. This is not intended to be a flame to the original poster of this article. I just wanted to point out the correct way to Shut Down. Tim Hazen {seismo,ihnp4,allegra,topaz,harvard}!uwvax!puff!hazen U. of Wisc. Plasma Physics Dept. hazen@puff.wisc.edu PLASMAHACKER@WISCPSL.BITNET {@wiscvm.wisc.edu}
dwb@well.UUCP (David W. Berry) (09/27/86)
One more time, just for the record and with the appropriate quotes from the SuperMac/DataFrame manual. > For the head parking procedure to be successful, after you have clicked > on Shutdown, you should turn either the Macintosh or the DataFrame off > before the "smiling mac" reappears on the screen (as it normally does > when the system reboots after the Shut Down command is executed). If > the image does reappear, you should allow the boot process to complete, > and then execute another Shut Down." "Welcome to the DataFrame 20", Pg. 6, Last Paragraph Seems pretty clear to me. The manufacturer fully intends that the drive should be turned off between the time the shutdown completes (indicated by the beep) and before rebooting starts again (indicated by the smiling mac reappearing.) If you miss the window, you try it all over again. The reasons for this are varied, but it certainly is the best way to treat the DataFrame 20 and other SCSI drives. David W. Berry "701 Menker Ave, #1 ; San Jose, CA. 95128-2876".USNail dwb@well.uucp dwb@Delphi dwb@GEnie 293-0752@408.MaBell -- David W. Berry dwb@well.uucp dwb@Delphi dwb@GEnie 293-0752@408.MaBell
tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) (09/29/86)
According to the DataFrame documentation, selecting "Shut Down" causes the
drive to park its heads. If the drive starts up in an un-parked state, then
it will go through some sort of self-test. I don't know why it always
starts up fast if you let it boot and then shut it off in the Finder without
doing anything. SuperMac seems to have very good support, so maybe someone
should just ask them....
--
Tim Maroney, Electronic Village Idiot
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)korn@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Peter "Arrgh" Korn) (09/29/86)
It seems that many folks out in net.land own DataFrame 20s.
I just got permission from the kind folks at SuperMac to
post their latest update...so I posted it to net.sources.mac.
The file contains a binhexed, packit-ed file containing
SuperSpool3.0, the queue DA, & docs; SuperPark & docs; and
Update (who's function I'm somewhat confused by, but at 4K,
I figured it's worth putting in).
Peter
-----
Peter "Arrgh" Korn I know lots of honorary jews! Why,
korn@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU some of my very best friends
{decvax,dual,hplabs,sdcsvax,ulysses}!ucbvax!korn are honorary jews!