jimc@iscuva.UUCP (Jim Cathey) (09/19/86)
Arrrrrggghhhhhh!
*** Warning, keyboard layout flame ahead...
I think I must be a member of the (or a) 'silent majority' when I state
that I much prefer the layout of the original Mac keyboard to that
abomination placed on the Mac+. I think the first keyboard is wonderful,
GOOD JOB, GUYS!
That damned numeric pad is in the way of my mouse! I like placing the
mouse right next to the keyboard, just about where cursor control keys
are placed on lesser machines. I have to reach too far on a Mac+. I
agree with the original decision to have a separate numeric pad for those
bean-counters among us who need one, and not penalize the rest of us who
don't.
The new placements of the Command and Option keys are awful. The dinky
right shift key is particularly annoying. I am a fairly quick and
sloppy typist, and I don't like having to pussyfoot around my shift
keys to keep from hitting other junk. I preferred the
left-hand/right-hand symmetry of the Option keys on the original
keyboard. It made for less hand-cramping when using them.
I would have preferred the Caps-lock and Command keys to be exchanged.
(I have since gotten used to curling my left thumb for Command rather
than the more familiar pinkie-push). Caps-lock is not actuated nearly
as much as Command, so why put it in the more valuable position?
Dvorak's recent whining about the dimples on D and K keys is totally
non-sensical. We did our keyboard that way. The dimples go there for
exactly the same reason the dimple goes on a 5 key and not the 6 key in
a numeric pad. Think about it... (hint, hold your hand up and look at it).
I don't care where the \ and ` keys are on a keyboard. They could be on the
bottom and still be close enough. They should NOT displace vitally important
keys such as Backspace, Return, and Shift. All of these should be big, close
to the home position, and have free space nearby for finger mash room.
I think that the Mac+ keyboard was designed by renegade left-handed (you can
bet the pad isn't in the way of THEIR mouse!) piano designers from DEC....
(DEC's keyboard anthem: WI-DER, MORE-KEYS, WI-DER, MORE-KEYS, ...)
((Actually I think the VT-220 keyboard was designed for executives, who
equate key count with corporate status. The Mac+ keyboard designers
are aware of this and didn't want businessmen to pooh-pooh the Mac+
because it doesn't have enough keys.))
Remember, high-speed typists care where keys go. The rest don't. Keyboards
are almost always designed by some guy who can't type, and who feels that
a perfectly rectangular cutout in the case and the color of the legends are
THE most important things. Need I say more?
***** Applying CO here.
2
Sorry, folks, that has been building up for some time. Am I really alone
out here?
--
+----------------+
! II CCCCCC ! Jim Cathey
! II SSSSCC ! ISC Systems Corp.
! II CC ! Spokane, WA
! IISSSS CC ! UUCP: ihnp4!tektronix!reed!iscuva!jimc
! II CCCCCC ! (509)927-5757
+----------------+
"With excitement like this, who is needing enemas?"rogerb@tekcrl.UUCP (Roger Bates) (09/23/86)
I am guilty too!! Of not speeking up that is. When the Mac+ was first introduced, I was all prepaired with my band saw to cut the damned key pad off! (Seriously, I have done just that in the past.) But then I discovered that Apple had destroyed the rest of the keyboard as well. My solution: When I bought the Mac+, I sold by 512K with the new keyboard and kept my old one. To be more constructive - The SCSI port has been touted for providing mix-and-match for computer storage devices. Why not do the same thing for keyboards. Lets pick(define) a keyboard connector/interface standard. Then we can shop for the keyboard that suits our needs somewhat independant of the computer of our dreams. Best of all, when changing computers (upgrade, or work to home) it would not be necessary to make that painfull adjustment. Of coarse this probably will never happen, For all the advantages to the user, I can not come up with any tangeable advantges to the computer manufacturer. Roger Bates. These are my views, not those of my employer (who didn't appreciate the way I treated his keyboards).
brian@ssc-vax.UUCP (Brian Fenske) (09/23/86)
> Arrrrrggghhhhhh! > > *** Warning, keyboard layout flame ahead... > > I think I must be a member of the (or a) 'silent majority' when I state > that I much prefer the layout of the original Mac keyboard to that > abomination placed on the Mac+. I think the first keyboard is wonderful, > GOOD JOB, GUYS! > I wouldn't go that far. See below. > > The new placements of the Command and Option keys are awful. The dinky > right shift key is particularly annoying. I am a fairly quick and > sloppy typist, and I don't like having to pussyfoot around my shift > keys to keep from hitting other junk. I preferred the > left-hand/right-hand symmetry of the Option keys on the original > keyboard. It made for less hand-cramping when using them. > > I would have preferred the Caps-lock and Command keys to be exchanged. > (I have since gotten used to curling my left thumb for Command rather > than the more familiar pinkie-push). Caps-lock is not actuated nearly > as much as Command, so why put it in the more valuable position? > .......... > > I don't care where the \ and ` keys are on a keyboard. They could be on the > bottom and still be close enough. They should NOT displace vitally important > keys such as Backspace, Return, and Shift. All of these should be big, close > to the home position, and have free space nearby for finger mash room. > > I think that the Mac+ keyboard was designed by renegade left-handed (you can > bet the pad isn't in the way of THEIR mouse!) piano designers from DEC.... > (DEC's keyboard anthem: WI-DER, MORE-KEYS, WI-DER, MORE-KEYS, ...) > ((Actually I think the VT-220 keyboard was designed for executives, who > equate key count with corporate status. The Mac+ keyboard designers > are aware of this and didn't want businessmen to pooh-pooh the Mac+ > because it doesn't have enough keys.)) > > Remember, high-speed typists care where keys go. The rest don't. Keyboards > are almost always designed by some guy who can't type, and who feels that > a perfectly rectangular cutout in the case and the color of the legends are > THE most important things. Need I say more? > > ***** Applying CO here. > 2 > > Sorry, folks, that has been building up for some time. Am I really alone > out here? > > -- > > +----------------+ > ! II CCCCCC ! Jim Cathey > ! II SSSSCC ! ISC Systems Corp. > ! II CC ! Spokane, WA > ! IISSSS CC ! UUCP: ihnp4!tektronix!reed!iscuva!jimc > ! II CCCCCC ! (509)927-5757 > +----------------+ > "With excitement like this, who is needing enemas?" No, Jim, you aren't alone. Since I bought my first Mac two years ago, I have always felt that overall it was the best personal computer on the market, except for the keyboard. I'll probably draw some fire for saying so but to me the #@% PC has the best FEEL of any keyboard I've used, terminals included. It's LAYOUT and number of keys is lousy but the touch is just right. The Mac's is too high, too clunky and (agreeing with Jim) the keys are in the wrong place. I hope Apple gets a lot of feedback and does something right with the keyboard on their upcoming products. Brian Fenske Boeing Aerospace Company UUCP: uw-beaver!ssc-vax!brian Seattle, Washington
pjmbaker@watcgl.UUCP (Peter J M Baker) (09/26/86)
I hate the placement of the COMMAND key on the mac. I'm an emacs'er and I use the control key for everything (backspace, tab, sometimes return ...). I want a keyboard for my mac that has this in the correct place. Has anyone heard of a mac compatible keyboard that has this feature? thanks in advance, Peter Baker ... utcsri!watmath!watcgl!pjmbaker
hogan@rosevax.UUCP (Andy Hogan) (10/04/86)
In article <884@ssc-vax.UUCP>, brian@ssc-vax.UUCP (Brian Fenske) writes: > > Arrrrrggghhhhhh! > > I think I must be a member of the (or a) 'silent majority' when I state > > that I much prefer the layout of the original Mac keyboard to that > > abomination placed on the Mac+. I think the first keyboard is wonderful, > > > I wouldn't go that far. See below. > > > > No, Jim, you aren't alone. Since I bought my first Mac two years > ago, I have always felt that overall it was the best personal > computer on the market, except for the keyboard. I'll probably draw > some fire for saying so but to me the #@% PC has the best FEEL of > any keyboard I've used, terminals included. It's LAYOUT and number > of keys is lousy but the touch is just right. The Mac's is too > high, too clunky and (agreeing with Jim) the keys are in the wrong I'll toss in my two bits in support of Brian and Jim. I was VERY dissapointed in the Mac keyboard. I was reasonably sure I would be when I saw (in pictures) that the profile did not conform to the (at that time new) DIN standard. Those low-profile keyboards are very comfortable to type on. Another point: are the keys on the Mac keyboard just a tisch closer together than most? My hands cramp when I use it for a long period of time, and I suspect it's because I hold my hands at a sharper angle to each other than on other keyboards. I won't say much about key placements, because I don't have a Mac+ keyboard, and my general experience is that changing from one to another is not too tough (unless you include one Dvorak in the bunch :-) ). I use three different ones here at work, and the Mac's at home, and have very little trouble with all the different key placements. BTW, the one I like best is the one I'm using now-- the new 'enhanced' IBM PC keyboard. Height, feel, and most key placements are excellent, and I finally have separate cursor and number keys !!!!!!! As long as Apple is admitting the need for MS DOS interfacing, they would do well to learn a bit about keyboards from big blue, too. -- Notice how they do not so much fly, as plummet. {appropriate head movement} --Monty Python (Flying Sheep Sketch) Andy Hogan Rosemount, Inc. Mpls MN path: ...ihnp4!stolaf!umn-cs!mmm!rosevax!hogan
jdb@mordor.ARPA (John Bruner) (10/05/86)
Keyboard preference is a very personal issue. Some people like low-profile keyboards, and others do not. Some like Dvorak, and others prefer QWERTY. Some want a caps-lock key, others don't. Some people need a numeric keypad. It seems to me that a standard is needed, but *not* a standard layout or a standard height, profile, etc. Rather, I would like to see a standard keyboard interface, which all computer and terminal manufacturers would adhere to. Keyboard manufacturers would build units which met the interface standard, and each user could select the keyboard s/he prefers. The marketplace would probably cause a small number of designs to become de facto standards. There are keyboards which I like and some which I can't stand. I would love to be able to keep using one of the keyboards I currently use [no, I won't tell you which one] when I migrate to a new machine. (I was able to do this, after a fashion, with my Sun by plugging a terminal into serial port A and telling the Sun to use it instead of the Sun keyboard. Unfortunately, this no longer works in SunWindows.) I resent continually being subject to the whim of designers who keep coming out with new and different designs. -- John Bruner (S-1 Project, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory) MILNET: jdb@mordor [jdb@s1-c.ARPA] (415) 422-0758 UUCP: ...!ucbvax!decwrl!mordor!jdb ...!seismo!mordor!jdb
dlc@lanl.ARPA (Dale Carstensen) (10/05/86)
I wonder what a keyboard such as the ones court reporters use could do for productivity, when used with a computer?
lsr@apple.UUCP (Larry Rosenstein) (10/14/86)
In article <8235@lanl.ARPA> dlc@lanl.ARPA (Dale Carstensen) writes: >I wonder what a keyboard such as the ones court reporters use could do for >productivity, when used with a computer? It just so happens that my housemate picked up one of these machines (called a stenograph). A stenograph works phonetically; each line of the output represents one syllable. Common words have special abbreviations. Not every letter is on the keyboard, so combinations are used. You can, however, hit all the keys at once. To use this on a computer, you would need some (relatively sophisticated) software to interpret the output. -- Larry Rosenstein Object Specialist Apple Computer AppleLink: Rosenstein1 UUCP: {sun, voder, nsc, mtxinu, dual}!apple!lsr CSNET: lsr@Apple.CSNET
coleman@cartan.Berkeley.EDU (Robert F. Coleman) (10/15/86)
Is there any way to enable the cursor keys on the Mac+ keyboard for use with Macwrite? I know they work with excel and word, but I like Macwrite and at present they're just taking up space.
coleman@cartan.Berkeley.EDU (Robert F. Coleman) (10/15/86)
Is there any way to enabloe the cursor keys for use with macwrite? --------- Robert F. Coleman
stephenw@murdu.OZ (Stephen Withers) (10/16/86)
In article <8235@lanl.ARPA> dlc@lanl.ARPA (Dale Carstensen) writes: >I wonder what a keyboard such as the ones court reporters use could do for >productivity, when used with a computer? Sounds rather like the Microwriter, a 6 button keyboard (I think the thumb controls 2 buttons) with some inbuilt intelligence. It was invented by the producer of the film 'Zulu' (Cy Enderfield, if my memory is correct), and has been selling steadily, if unspectacularly, for at least 5 years. The Microwriter is a chord keyboard, and the finger patterns have some relationship to the shape of the character you want. I've never used one, but from what I've heard it's a case of love it or hate it (like the Mac??). Apparently it is used by senior civil servants in Britain to prepare documents that are too secret to be typed by their secretaries. The claim is that virtually anyone can learn to Microwrite at a useful speed without too much practice, certainly less than would be needed to reach the same speed on a conventional keyboard. Now, if you could build one with an integral mouse.... Stephen Withers, Manager, Microcomputer Support Group, University Computing Services, The University of Melbourne, Parkville, Victoria 3052, Australia. ACSnet: stephenw@murdu UUCP: {seismo,hplabs,mcvax,ukc,nttlab}!munnari!murdu.oz!stephenw ARPA: munnari!murdu.oz!stephenw@seismo.css.gov CSNET: stephenw%murdu@munnari.oz "The only thing I ever learned from experience was that I just made another mistake."
thomas@utah-gr.UUCP (Spencer W. Thomas) (10/16/86)
Actually, a colleague of mine in the Mechanical Engineering dept here is
doing just that (building a MicroWriter into a mouse). I think he's
pretty close.
--
=Spencer ({ihnp4,decvax}!utah-cs!thomas, thomas@utah-cs.ARPA)rentsch@unc.UUCP (Tim Rentsch) (10/19/86)
As long as we are talking about alternate keyboard layouts and styles, has anyone else come to the conclusion that I have, viz., that people should have TWO (different) keyboards, one for each hand, and that they should be in the arms of your chair!? Or isn't anybody else tired of the awkward and unnatural position required by every keyboard they have ever used? cheers, Tim
barnett@im4u.UUCP (Lewis Barnett @ The Home for the Terminally Confused) (10/20/86)
In article <59@unc.unc.UUCP> rentsch@unc.UUCP (Tim Rentsch) writes: > >As long as we are talking about alternate keyboard layouts and >styles, has anyone else come to the conclusion that I have, viz., >that people should have TWO (different) keyboards, one for each >hand, and that they should be in the arms of your chair!? >cheers, > >Tim I suppose someone should point out that this would only be a good idea if you were a touch typist who never has to look at the keys. I sort of fit that description, except that even after twelve years, I still have trouble with the shifted number keys. I've never seen any figures, but an awful lot of the computer-folk I know are hunt-and- peck typists, and such an arrangement would be sheer torture for them. Lewis Barnett,CS Dept, Painter Hall 3.28, Univ. of Texas, Austin, TX 78712 "Frankly, there's something about reality that gives me the shivering willies!" -- Hank the Hallucination -- -- barnett@im4u.UTEXAS.EDU, barnett@im4u.UUCP, {ihnp4,harvard,seismo,gatech,ctvax}!im4u!barnett
eaw@alliant.UUCP (Eric Woudenberg) (10/22/86)
In article <59@unc.unc.UUCP> rentsch@unc.UUCP (Tim Rentsch) writes: > >As long as we are talking about alternate keyboard layouts and >styles ... isn't anybody else tired of the awkward and unnatural >position required by every keyboard they have ever used? Lilian Malt, a British woman, did work in this area, she came up with the "Maltron" keyboard. It was ergonomically designed to the hilt, carefully sculpted to fit each hand, with many keys for each thumb. It looked like someone had taken an old MIT or Stanford MicroSwitch keyboard and put it in the oven until it was totally deformed. I think the two halves could be used independently so that they could be mounted on the arms of a chair or something. I hoped that this keyboard would make it, but it seems we are just too ingrained with qwerty to break loose. If anyone knows about such a keyboard for PC or MAC use I'd like to know about it. Rick Woudenberg (...!alliant!eaw)