lseward@randvax.UUCP (Larry Seward) (10/09/84)
Forwarded messages------------------------------------- From: lanl-a!jlg@rand-unix Newsgroups: net.math.symbolic Subject: $15k for MACSYMA Date: Thu, 27-Sep-84 10:47:42 PDT Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory Apparently-To: symalg There appear to me a few misconceptions and misstatements of fact in James Giles' response, so I thought I should say something. > Are there any public domain symbolic mathematics packages out there? > Symbolics' price of $15K seems a bit steep for Macsyma. Are there any > free packages or reasonably priced packages around? $15K seems especially out of line when you remember that Symbolics didn't even write the code! The VAX version was written and maintained at Berkeley. You seem to be under the impression that each version of MACSYMA involves its own code in a large way. That simply is not so. There is essentially only one version of the MACSYMA code, i.e. over 90% of it is the same no matter what the version. And Berkeley did not provide sole maintenance of the VAX version. MIT fixed a bunch of bugs in it that were forwarded to us by Berkeley. Also, Symbolics did a good deal of work on the Vax version as well. MACSYMA was designed and developed at MIT (much of it was government funded through DOE and others). Most of the coding for MACSYMA was done by graduate students, DOE scientists, and faculty; few of whom benefit from the sale of the code. In fact, the only version which Symbolics wrote was the one which runs on their Lisp Machine. The first version for the Lisp Machine was done at MIT. This effort is documented in the article "The LISP Machine" which, for one, is in the book "Artificial Intelligence: An MIT Perspective", Vol. 2, which was published before the founding of Symbolics. You are correct that Symbolics did a good deal of work on the version which runs on the 3600. I don't blame Symbolics for this mess. I would probably sell MACSYMA for $15k myself, if someone declared me to be the authorized vendor. This was in litigation for some time and there was a strong case for declaring the code to be public domain. I don't recall it ever being "in litigation". In fact, before Symbolics was licensed as vendor, the VAX version of the code was available from Berkeley (for government and educational institutions only) for a tape copy fee ($200 or $500 I think). Berkeley favored the position that the code should be public domain. Too bad they didn't prevail. For some strange reason you are treating "Berkeley" as a monolithic thing. A professor at Berkeley may have subscribed to the point of view you mention, but the legal office at Berkeley is a contractee in the current situation, and Berkeley accepts royalties from it. Also, $15k is the price per machine - no site wide licenses are available from Symbolics. However, substantial discounts are available for educational institutions (still for individual machines only). Symbolics charges an additional fee for a maintenance contract (one year). MACSYMA and Symbolics are trademarks of Symbolics inc. James Giles jlg@lanl-a ...!inhp4!cmcl2!lanl-a!jlg -------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 5 Oct 84 23:49:28 pdt From: fateman%ucbdali@Berkeley (Richard Fateman) Message-Id: <8410060649.AA23220@ucbdali.ARPA> Subject: Re: Setting the record straight on MACSYMA Cc: fateman%ucbdali@Berkeley >From lseward@rand-unix Fri Oct 5 17:01:34 1984 Subject: Setting the record straight on MACSYMA Date: Wed, 3 Oct 84 08:21 EDT From: Richard Pavelle <RP%TENEX.SCRC.Symbolics@rand-unix> Subject: Setting the record straight on MACSYMA Subject: $15k for MACSYMA $15K seems especially out of line when you remember that Symbolics didn't even write the code! The VAX version was written and maintained at Berkeley. MACSYMA was designed and developed at MIT (much of it was government funded through DOE and others). Most of the coding for MACSYMA was done by graduate students, DOE scientists, and faculty; few of whom benefit from the sale of the code. In fact, the only version which Symbolics wrote was the one which runs on their Lisp Machine. Let me set the record straight. MIT, through their licensing agent, Arthur D. Little, approached Symbolics in 1982 to have MACSYMA widely distributed, supported and enhanced. Both MIT and the Regents of the University of California receive very substantial royalties from Symbolics for commercial VAX MACSYMA sales. The 15K$ price reflects the cost of maintenance and distribution only. At least one other algebra package is priced at nearly three times the price of MACSYMA. ..... UC Berkeley does, in fact, receive royalties for the VAX version. After it was determined that at least for a while, only Symbolics would be able to distribute MACSYMA, hence VAXIMA, Symbolics was sold a non-exclusive right to the Berkeley enhancements to MACSYMA. The rights were sold on advice of UC counsel, so that we could force Symbolics to vigorously pursue enhancement and distribution, and keep the educational price very low. ---RJF .... I don't blame Symbolics for this mess. I would probably sell MACSYMA for $15K myself, if someone declared me to be the authorized vendor. This was in litigation for some time and there was a strong case for declaring the code to be public domain. In fact, before Symbolics was licensed as vendor, the VAX version of the code was available from Berkeley (for government and educational institutions only) for a tape copy fee ($200 or $500 I think). Berkeley favored the position that the code should be public domain. Too bad they didn't prevail. We have put a great deal of effort into the VAX version of MACSYMA here at Symbolics. I am not saying that the Symbolics version is perfect by any means but it is getting better. On the whole commercial, government and university users seem very happy with MACSYMA and feel it is well worth the price. The Berkeley version was NOT a commercial product and was UNSUPPORTED. .... Of course, some people feel the Symbolics version of VAXIMA is not supported well, nor much different from Berkeley's. I have no first hand experience here, but lots of second hand complaints. ---RJF .... Nothing involving MACSYMA has ever been in litigation. Nobody in authority has claimed that MACSYMA is in the public domain. Berkeley has never favored the position that MACSYMA should be in the public domain. ... If "Berkeley" = Richard Fateman, this is False. I have always, and still do, favor the position that Macsyma should be in the public domain. I tried to achieve, as nearly as possible, this effect, during the time that Berkeley distributed VAXIMA (at <= $200 per copy). MIT stopped us. This public domain view is shared by almost everyone but MIT lawyers and Symbolics. As far as litigation goes, threats of lawsuits have abounded. ---RJF .... On the contrary, Berkeley sought and the Regents now receive substantial royalties from Symbolics for commercial sales of MACSYMA on the VAX. Symbolics is pleased to support the educational and research programs of the University of California in this way. .... It is nice of Symbolics to feel that way; unfortunately, what UC does with its royalties is still unresolved. Berkeley's receipt of royalties puts us in a position where we can threaten Symbolics with a lawsuit if they do not distribute a version of Vaxima on (say) 68000s: If Symbolics doesn't pursue that market, UCB loses royalties, so we can sue. If UCB just gave the stuff to Symbolics, there would be no such pressure. That is the reason the UCB lawyers advised that we collect royalties. I understand from Joel Moses that the MIT royalties have not been spent, distributed to authors, or anything. Perhaps readers of this newsgroup would have suggestions. (I suggested fellowships, sponsorship of SIGSAM, honoraria for conferences, distribution to the authors, travel funds to conferences for students... Joel felt these had nothing to do with MIT. So I suggested that they be distributed to the authors. But they're also not at MIT, for the most part.) ---RJF P.S. I still find Macsyma to be the most useful of the algebraic manipulation systems I have available. I regret that so many people have had trouble obtaining copies for reasons beyond my control. P.P.S. I hope this newsgroup can progress to technical topics. ......