info-mac@uw-beaver (info-mac) (07/06/84)
From: Richard Furuta <Furuta@washington.arpa>
I've received a number of requests asking that the info-mac messages
that went over the list after the last mass posting but before the
introduction of fa.info-mac be posted to Usenet. I will do so in
seven messages. My correspondents inform me that the last message
previously posted in bulk was one of May 12, 1984 so I've started
there.
--Rick
Furuta@Washington (ARPAnet)
or
...ihnp4!uw-beaver!uw-june!furuta (uucp)
...decvax!uw-beaver!uw-june!furuta
---------------
1) 14-May ihnp4!utzoo!henry@Be Re: flame about color Macs...
2) 14-May Leigh L. Klotz perils of not having cursor motion commands
3) 14-May Tony Siegman Interfacing Mac to hp 7470A RS-232C Plotter
4) 14-May Jerry E. Pournelle Toolbox equates for peons
5) 14-May Andrew W. Donoho Protocol for SendOne/GetFile???
6) 14-May Kevin.Dowling at CMU Printer
7) 14-May Chad Leland Mitchell price
8) 14-May Dave Farber Query on rs232/422 mac connectors
9) 15-May "Jones Dan%LLL"@LLL- Tektronix terminal emulation on the MAC.
10) 15-May sventek@lbl-ws.arpa Uses of color
11) 15-May Joseph I. Pallas Re: Query on rs232/422 mac connectors
12) 15-May Michael Rubin Re: flame about color Macs...
13) 15-May Leo Hourvitz Outside Development & Color
14) 15-May Don Johnson SOFTWARE!!
15) 15-May Piersol.pasa@XEROX.A Re: flame about color Macs...
16) 15-May Tim McNerney Henry's flame about color Macs...
17) 15-May Bob Rees Re: Query on rs232/422 mac connectors
18) 16-May Steve Epstein Query: CSI Forth
19) 16-May Mark Hume: U. of Tor General comments on MacDraw, Microsoft Word e
20) 16-May DENNIS GRIESSER at H
21) 16-May Thomka.es@XEROX.ARPA Re: flame about color Macs...
22) 16-May MKrigell.es@XEROX.AR Random Apple News
23) 17-May Chad Leland Mitchell [L. Brett Glass <GLASS@SU-SIERRA.ARPA>: MACIN
24) 17-May Randy Frank imagewriter ribbons
25) 17-May Dick Kalagher Neat Mac Application
Message 1 -- ************************
Mail-From: PATTERMANN created at 14-May-84 13:04:57
Return-Path: <ihnp4!utzoo!henry@Berkeley>
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id AA26517; Mon, 23 Apr 84 01:51:51 pst
From: ihnp4!utzoo!henry@Berkeley
Date: 13 May 84 01:19:31 CDT (Sun)
Message-Id: <8405130619.AA15785@ihnp4.ATT.UUCP>
Received: by ihnp4.ATT.UUCP; id AA15785; 13 May 84 01:19:31 CDT (Sun)
To: info-mac@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA
Subject: Re: flame about color Macs...
ReSent-date: Mon 14 May 84 13:04:57-PDT
ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann <PATTERMANN@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
ReSent-To: info-mac: ;
I'm reminded of something that Rob Pike, inventor of the Blit, said
when he was asked about color. He said (roughly), "I don't think
we know how to use small amounts of color well enough to make it
worthwhile". I think he's right. Color is dynamite for games, and
it's important for a very few specialized applications like VLSI
design, but otherwise it's not *at all* obvious that it's worth
the money and the performance penalty. (Yes, there is a performance
penalty when you have to update four times as many bits to change an
area of the screen.)
Most of the more mundane uses of color that I've seen demonstrated
have been flashy sales gimmicks rather than truly useful techniques.
Having the headers of a spreadsheet in a different color from the
cells does not strike me as worthwhile. In fact, it makes me retch.
A screen filled with gratuitous and unnecessary color changes is
worse than black and white.
*Real* color, at least 8 bits for each of red, green, and blue, is
a different story. But that is much more expensive than monochrome,
and again many applications don't need it.
Face it: color is a fad. Its modest usefulness is being completely
obscured by marketing hype. "Everybody knows" that monochrome is
obsolete and you've *just* *got* *to* *have* color, or your computer
is clearly a relic of the dark ages and positively an *antique*...
Gah. I'll take high-resolution monochrome any day.
Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
{allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry
Message 2 -- ************************
Mail-From: PATTERMANN created at 14-May-84 13:05:02
Return-Path: <KLOTZ@MIT-MC>
Received: from MIT-MC by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Sun 13 May 84 22:03:07-PDT
Date: 14 May 1984 01:01-EDT
From: Leigh L. Klotz <KLOTZ @ MIT-MC>
Subject: perils of not having cursor motion commands
To: INFO-MAC @ MIT-MC
ReSent-date: Mon 14 May 84 13:05:02-PDT
ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann <PATTERMANN@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
ReSent-To: info-mac: ;
Just now I was using a Macintosh and I leaned back to write a letter. I
put the keyboard in my lap and moved the display so I could see it
plainly. I thought after a while, "This is almost like using the old AI
TV system." Pretty neat, maybe they wouldn't be so bad to have. I typed
away all comfortable for a while until I needed to correct something at
the beginning of the line. Having learned to use the mouse for all
editing, I reached for it but when I went to take it there was only my
hand in the air...
Message 3 -- ************************
Mail-From: PATTERMANN created at 14-May-84 13:05:05
Return-Path: <SIEGMAN@SU-SIERRA.ARPA>
Received: from SU-SIERRA.ARPA by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Sun 13 May 84 22:25:13-PDT
Date: Sun 13 May 84 22:21:20-PDT
From: Tony Siegman <SIEGMAN@SU-SIERRA.ARPA>
Subject: Interfacing Mac to hp 7470A RS-232C Plotter
To: info-mac@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA
ReSent-date: Mon 14 May 84 13:05:05-PDT
ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann <PATTERMANN@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
ReSent-To: info-mac: ;
Microsoft Basic on the Mac can be used to drive an hp 7470A plotter
with the RS-232C interface by using the simplified terminal emulation
program given in the May/June 1984 issue of MacWorld with the settings
STOP1 (one stop bit), DATA8 (8 bit data word), BAUD 9600, and NO.PARITY
(and the appropriate matching settings of the dip switch on the plotter).
The Mac is connected to the plotter by the same cable that comes with the
Imagewriter printer, and the command line to initialize the plotter and
establish XON/XOFF handshaking is:
PRINT #1,"IN; SP 1;"CHR$(27)".I81;;17:"CHR$(27)".N;19:";
-------
Message 4 -- ************************
Mail-From: PATTERMANN created at 14-May-84 13:05:07
Return-Path: <POURNE@MIT-MC>
Received: from MIT-MC by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Mon 14 May 84 03:39:32-PDT
Date: 14 May 1984 06:38-EDT
From: Jerry E. Pournelle <POURNE @ MIT-MC>
Subject: Toolbox equates for peons
To: INFO-MAC @ SUMEX-AIM, STERNLIGHT @ USC-ECL, REICH @ NYU-ACF1
In-reply-to: Msg of 9 May 1984 04:27-EDT from Jerry E. Pournelle <POURNE>
ReSent-date: Mon 14 May 84 13:05:07-PDT
ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann <PATTERMANN@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
ReSent-To: info-mac: ;
[Last message on this 'subject'..... Ed.]
Let us set the record straight.
I know of three cases of applications for "Developer
Status." All were refused. I probably would have turned down
one of them myself. The other two seem highly qualified, and if
I were hoping to get software out for my system I'd have thought
them owrth encouraging.
I am pleased to hear from STERNLIGHT that there are
apparent exceptions to what I was persuaded was the rule. One
reason I ask questions on the net, or even make statements, is
to find things out; unlike Dvorak, who recently bragged in his
San Francisco Chronical column that "a columnist doesn't have to
check his facts" I tend to do some homework before I publish.
My interpretation of the facts remains my own business.
I don't apologize for being wrong; why should I? On this net,
one says what one thinks is true; one will get corrections soon
enough. Isn't taht its purpose? Without information sources,
how the devil will I know.
On the other hand, it remains a fact that Apple did
sufficient exhoration of hobbyists and hackers to make it a
reasonable expectation from all three I know of who applied
that they'd be accepted. There was also considerable hoop-lah
about how much software would be developed, adn when; it was,
after all, a major selling point.
My suspicion is that Apple originally meant to grant
"Developer" status to a far larger number of people, then found
sales much better than expected. They didn't need so many
discounted machines sold to get them far out on the learning
curve for manufacture, so they could charge full price for more
of them than they'd thought. They chose to do that. This is
not an unreasonable decision. Most corporations probably would
make the same decision.
Whether it was a WISE decision is another matter.
I repeat: certainly Apple would lose little by granting
developer status to every Ph.D. gainfully employed in the
computer business who applies. They would lose little by
granting Developer status to any hacker with a good track
record, even if the track record consisted of work on programs
in other people's shops rather than on their own. Sure: they'd
lose, say, 1000 full price sales, at most. That's a million
dollars. No small sum. But if within that thousand there was
one VisiCalc...
True: the VisiCalc people had no special developer
status. no one had. But the Apple II was a prety open machine,
much easier to understand thd interface to. Is the Macintosh
that simple? Apparently not, else there would already be some
of that promised flood.
I don't know where sternlight gets the notion that I
dislike Apple. I don't much care what company competes with IBM
so long as somebody does it successfully. I'm a little weary of
the breathless hype, and VERY weary of the Apple-polished
corporate image of the Good Guys who are somehow differently
motivated, but I can make that statement about other companies I
know of.
If the Mac had 500K of memory and a second drive, then
it would be worth $2500 and more; alternatively, it's worth a
fair bit less in its present state. That, of course, is merely
an opinion, based on considerable experience with a number of
machines (including a Mac).
Now: if Sternlight's angry little tirade is answered,
then I too am willing to pass on to another subject. I alrady
was; that's why I "changed the subject" after he pointed out
that I was mistaken in one point of information. I hadn't know
that I was supposed to acknowledge that I'd lost some kind of
debating point; however, I'm perfectly willing to make that
acknowledgement if it makes him feel better.
Last point: does anyone know WHY it is taking so long to
write useful applications programs for the Mac? One story we
heard: Apple intended to do it all in house. They had not
intended even Microsoft basic. Then, very late last year, they
discovered that they were not going to be producing any useful
software (other than the ability to produce 9 page illuminated
manuscripts) before the Mac was to be releeased. There was
panic calls, including to Microsoft; which is why the Microsoft
Basic implementation is such a kludge (14 K workspace!).
Anyone know whether or not that's true?
Next rumour: AT&T will sell Macs with 256K chips. I
keep hearing that. It makes little sense to me. I have no
confirmations, only multiple sources. Anyone know?
The main question remains: if it's so easy to interface
with the Mac and write software for it, why has none appeared?
Is it being held for COMDEX; or is it harder to write than was
supposed?
Message 5 -- ************************
Mail-From: PATTERMANN created at 14-May-84 13:05:09
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Posted-Date: Mon, 14 May 84 09:45:30 CDT
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Received: by ut-ngp.ARPA (4.22/4.22)
id AA25534; Mon, 14 May 84 09:53:52 cdt
Date: Mon, 14 May 84 09:45:30 CDT
From: Andrew W. Donoho <awd@ut-ngp.ARPA>
To: info-mac@sumex-aim.ARPA
Subject: Protocol for SendOne/GetFile???
ReSent-date: Mon 14 May 84 13:05:09-PDT
ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann <PATTERMANN@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
ReSent-To: info-mac: ;
Does anyone in netland know the protocol for the SendOne/GetFile transfer
programs that Apple includes in its software supplement to the Mac?
We haven't been able to find any documentation on this in Inside Macintosh.
Any information would be greatly appreciated. If I receive some useful
information I will repost it to the net.
Thanks in Advance
Andrew W. Donoho
awd@ut-ngp
Message 6 -- ************************
Mail-From: PATTERMANN created at 14-May-84 13:05:12
Return-Path: <nivek@cmu-ri-rover.arpa>
Received: from CMU-RI-ROVER.ARPA by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Mon 14 May 84 10:11:26-PDT
Date: 14 May 1984 13:13:00-EDT
From: Kevin.Dowling at CMU-RI-ROVER
Subject: Printer
ReSent-date: Mon 14 May 84 13:05:11-PDT
ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann <PATTERMANN@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
ReSent-To: info-mac: ;
The May issue of BYTE talks about the new addition to the Apple line:
The Apple IIc. In addition, on page 282, they mention a new printer
called The Scribe. The Scribe is a plain-paper thermal transfer printer
with color capabilities (no price announced but expected to be in the $300
range) The Scribe, it is said, will print on virtually any paper surface
and projection transparencies. It is designed as a printer for the
entire product line including Mac's and Lisa's.
The BYTE article
goes on to say that output appeared to exceed the Imagewriter in quality.
It operates at 80cps (draft mode) or 50cps (letter mode)
Dot resolution is 160 horizontal x 144 vertical per inch or 23040 dots/sq in.
Color printing is done by a color ribbon with a spectrum of colors arranged
in bands on the ribbon. About $5 for a 80,000 character black ribbon and
about $8 for color. Any estimates on how much text is 80,000 chars?
The printhead is a proprietary device that consists of 24 resistance elements
that are arranged in a vertical column. While printing, the head is
pressed against a polyester ribbon with carbon filled paraffin ink on it.
The resistance elements are pulsed briefly, heating them and melt the
ink to deposit it on the paper. The temperature range of the resistance
element goes from 300 degrees F to 95 degrees F in several microseconds.
nivek
ARPANET: nivek@cmu-ri-rover
USmail : Kevin Dowling
Robotics Institute
Pgh, PA 15213
Bell : (412) 578-8830
Message 7 -- ************************
Mail-From: PATTERMANN created at 14-May-84 13:05:14
Return-Path: <M.CHAD@SU-SIERRA.ARPA>
Received: from SU-SIERRA.ARPA by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Mon 14 May 84 10:13:42-PDT
Date: Mon 14 May 84 10:09:50-PDT
From: Chad Leland Mitchell <M.CHAD@SU-SIERRA.ARPA>
Subject: price
To: info-mac@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA
ReSent-date: Mon 14 May 84 13:05:14-PDT
ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann <PATTERMANN@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
ReSent-To: info-mac: ;
Individually, a few of Jerry's points make some sense, but taken together I
am not sure. For example:
-Apple may be going for market share. I am sure that they are based on
advertizing strategies, but we will not really know as long as they can sell
every Mac they can make at the current price. If they drop the price as
production catches up to sales THEN we will know they are going for market
share. Until then we do not know.
-To be useful by Jerry's definition, a Mac needs a second drive and a printer
which does not bring the price to $4000. First he complained that the second
drive was not available. Is he now complaining that it is available?
-Jerry's main concern about software is that there is not enough software
right now. I cannot understand how changing the certified developer program
would help with that. If Apple approved everyone who applied from here on
they would still contribute little software until soemtime next year.
-If I see a BYTE article which says that there are only 7 or 9 (or however many
there are right now) software packages currently available for the Mac, I hope
it also reads "(as of May 7)" or something like that. The "Update" on the
Macintosh and Lisa 2 in the current BYTE seems to have been written right after
the January 24th meeting. With such a lag time, any claim to little software
is likely to be very out of date.
-I am not too worried that no software will arrive. I might be if it were all
still in design or development phases, but much of it is in Beta test and very
little that makes it to beta test does not really ship.
-We all want the software to be well tested and really custimized to take
advantage of the Mac. We complain about the MS-Basic which seems to be a quick
port. We also want all of that software right now. I would rather wait till
June for well tested software than get something now that works as well as some
of the early software on some other machines. The ONLY editor that I am aware
of for the IBM-PC when it was announced was EDLIN which as you might guess is
a line editor.
I do have a possible correction to make. Rumors still seem to indicate that
in the early days of the Certified Developer program there was a 90% acceptance
rate. When they reached about 1000 certified developers (far more than
anticipated) they seem to have decided to change that acceptance rate
significantly (this is just a rumor to me, but others seem to support this).
Perhaps when their staff figures out how to support the volume of developers
already accepted they will change the acceptance rate again. Thus I stand
corrected. Back when they told me that anyone with the right qualifications
would be accepted that was true, but it may no longer be true.
Chad
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Message 8 -- ************************
Mail-From: PATTERMANN created at 14-May-84 13:05:16
Return-Path: <farber@udel-ee.arpa>
Received: from udel-ee by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Mon 14 May 84 10:27:59-PDT
Date: Mon, 14 May 84 13:27:29 EDT
From: Dave Farber <farber@udel-ee.arpa>
To: info-mac%sumex-aim.csnet@udel-ee.arpa
Subject: Query on rs232/422 mac connectors
ReSent-date: Mon 14 May 84 13:05:16-PDT
ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann <PATTERMANN@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
ReSent-To: info-mac: ;
We are getting about 2.5 volts out of our mac on pin 7. Is that
normal? I believe the specs for rs232 say > 3 volts
Message 9 -- ************************
Mail-From: PATTERMANN created at 15-May-84 15:40:37
Return-Path: <"Jones Dan%LLL"@LLL-MFE.ARPA>
Received: from LLL-MFE.ARPA by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Mon 14 May 84 16:17:57-PDT
Date: Mon, 14 May 84 16:16 PDT
From: "Jones Dan%LLL"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Tektronix terminal emulation on the MAC.
To: info-mac@sumex-aim.arpa
ReSent-date: Tue 15 May 84 15:40:35-PDT
ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann <PATTERMANN@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
ReSent-To: info-mac: ;
I wonder if anyone has heard of anyone coming up with a terminal emulator
that will do Tektronix 4010 Emulation. Would it be possible to develop this
on a mac in one of the current languages available?
Thanks,
Dan Jones
Message 10 -- ************************
Mail-From: PATTERMANN created at 15-May-84 15:40:39
Return-Path: <sventek@lbl-ws.arpa>
Received: from lbl-ws.arpa by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Mon 14 May 84 20:34:12-PDT
Date: Mon, 14 May 84 20:34:22 PDT
From: sventek@lbl-ws.arpa
Message-Id: <840514203247.006@lbl-ws.arpa>
Subject: Uses of color
To: info-mac@sumex-aim.arpa
ReSent-date: Tue 15 May 84 15:40:39-PDT
ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann <PATTERMANN@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
ReSent-To: info-mac: ;
While I must partially agree with Henry Spencer's assertion that we don't
know all the myriad uses of color, I have seen one example that would
fit right in with the Mac's user interface. The more expensive Apollo
Domain systems, when used with a color monitor, make the background and
outline of each window be a different color. This turns out to be extremely
useful to permit almost instant recognition ermit almost instant recognition of the buried window which
the user wishes to place on top of the desk.
Joe Sventek <sventek@lbl-ws.arpa>
Message 11 -- ************************
Mail-From: PATTERMANN created at 15-May-84 15:40:46
Return-Path: <PALLAS@SU-SCORE.ARPA>
Received: from SU-SCORE.ARPA by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Mon 14 May 84 22:25:43-PDT
Date: Mon 14 May 84 22:18:34-PDT
From: Joseph I. Pallas <PALLAS@SU-SCORE.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Query on rs232/422 mac connectors
To: farber@UDEL-EE.ARPA
cc: info-mac@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA
In-Reply-To: Message from "Dave Farber <farber@udel-ee.arpa>" of Mon 14 May 84 17:39:58-PDT
ReSent-date: Tue 15 May 84 15:40:42-PDT
ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann <PATTERMANN@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
ReSent-To: info-mac: ;
We are getting about 2.5 volts out of our mac on pin 7. Is that
normal? I believe the specs for rs232 say > 3 volts
It can't be considered abnormal, since (according to the pinout in
<info-mac>macintosh.rs232) pin 7 is an input. The Mac represents
an rs232 Data Terminal, not Data Set. If you're talking to a modem,
pin 7 should go to rs232 pin 5. The connections I used are:
Mac Modem
3 7
5 2
7 5
9 3
Some modems will want to see DTR (pin 20) active also, which can be
faked by tying it to pin 5 (I'm not sure if that's the canonical way
to fake it, though). Other modems will ignore DTR or can be made to
(e.g., USR Password has a switchable option).
Hope that helps!
joe
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Message 12 -- ************************
Mail-From: PATTERMANN created at 15-May-84 15:40:48
Return-Path: <RUBIN@COLUMBIA-20.ARPA>
Received: from COLUMBIA-20.ARPA by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Mon 14 May 84 23:16:43-PDT
Date: Tue 15 May 84 02:16:10-EDT
From: Michael Rubin <RUBIN@COLUMBIA-20.ARPA>
Subject: Re: flame about color Macs...
To: ihnp4!utzoo!henry@UCB-VAX.ARPA
cc: info-mac@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA
In-Reply-To: Message from "ihnp4!utzoo!henry@Berkeley" of Sun 13 May 84 01:19:31-EDT
ReSent-date: Tue 15 May 84 15:40:48-PDT
ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann <PATTERMANN@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
ReSent-To: info-mac: ;
In non-graphic applications, color tends to be used as a field
separator (a way of separating logically different parts of the screen)
or a standout mode (for highlighting invalid input or out-of-band
messages to the user like WARNING, DISK IS FULL). The Mac, unlike the
competition, can use font changes and separate windows for the former
and alert/dialog boxes for the latter.
However, if you are dealing with several planes of graphic data
(VLSI design, but also plotting more than two or three curves on a
graph, or drawing the electrical and plumbing plans of a building) you
just can't do it in black and white. Even minimal color is a huge help
-- witness the three-color (red, yellow, green) radar scopes used by air
traffic controllers.
Oh yes, four bit planes doesn't mean only 16 colors; ask any Atari
user about color look-up tables. The IBM PC doesn't use these because
[IBM was dumb, and] cheap monitors only understand composite video (low
resolution) or digital RGB (can only display 16 colors anyhow). The
present Mac has its own homebrewed video electronics anyhow; who cares
about standard video signals?
Not to mention games... then again, us serious folks *never* play
games on our computers.
--From the butane torch of:
Mike Rubin <Rubin@Columbia-20.ARPA>
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Message 13 -- ************************
Mail-From: PATTERMANN created at 15-May-84 15:40:50
Return-Path: <@MIT-MC:leo@MIT-PAMELA>
Received: from MIT-MC by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Tue 15 May 84 05:47:06-PDT
Date: Tuesday 15 May 1984 08:45:57 EDT
From: Leo Hourvitz <leo@mit-pamela>
Subject: Outside Development & Color
To: <info-mac@mit-pamela>
cc: <leo.log@mit-pamela>
ReSent-date: Tue 15 May 84 15:40:50-PDT
ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann <PATTERMANN@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
ReSent-To: info-mac: ;
The recently posted whispering that Apple did not plan
to have outside developers for the Mac is not the case.
Unlike Lisa (for which it is STILL hard to write real
software) and partially because of it, one of the corner-
stones of the Mac has been an active third party program.
I know of people having been outside (and I do mean
outside) developers last summer. Apparently the Lisa
experience convinced some folks that third party developers
were a good thing.
I don't know why Apple has started to turn down some people
for this exalted position, save perhaps that more people
are applying than they ever thought would. I still don't
see what quite prevents one from buying the necessary items
(albeit at retail) and writing a program, anyway.
As for color, I rather disagree that it is useless, but I
do agree that it would have been a bad choice for Mac.
Besides all the reasons already discussed, I have yet to
see a color screen that is as crisp, clear, and stable as
a Mac's (and yes, I have seen all the screens on display
at Siggraph). Anything with a shadow mask loses on bright-
ness and, to me, some amount of clarity over a monochrome
screen. Even if the color were just as cheap, I would
rather stare at the monochrome, if I had to look at it all
day (hopefully the future will help change this).
Leo
Leo Hourvitz
Architecture Machine Group, MIT
leo%pamela@mc (arpanet)
Message 14 -- ************************
Mail-From: PATTERMANN created at 15-May-84 15:40:52
Return-Path: <dhj@rice.ARPA>
Received: from rice.ARPA by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Tue 15 May 84 06:30:49-PDT
Received: by rice.ARPA (AA02785); Tue, 15 May 84 08:21:27 CDT
Date: Tue, 15 May 84 08:21:27 CDT
From: Don Johnson <dhj@rice.ARPA>
Message-Id: <8405151321.AA02785@rice.ARPA>
To: info-mac@sumex-aim.ARPA
Subject: SOFTWARE!!
ReSent-date: Tue 15 May 84 15:40:52-PDT
ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann <PATTERMANN@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
ReSent-To: info-mac: ;
For those who want software:
Just thought I would inform you guys that dealers should have demo versions
of MacDraw, MacProject, and MacPascal RIGHT NOW. As a consortium university,
we are considered a dealer and got ours in the mail yesterday.
Included in the shipment was the new Finder, MacWrite, and MacPaint. All seem
to work AND there are 10-point fonts in both Geneva, New York, and Geneva. I
would add that 20-point fonts are also included, but that write/paint does
not let you use that point size directly. Also included, but not in the
system resources (in the 'Fonts' file), is the Cairo font.
It has NO characters as such, consisting only of graphics 'things'. I will
let some energetic youngster type in descriptions of them for info-mac (ever
wanted a fried egg in your text for emphasis?).
Some of the font errors mentioned by Axler have been fixed. The Finder does
take fewer swaps than before (I copied a small file last night in ONE swap).
Don Johnson
Rice University
P.S. Ya should have been at the 100-day-since-Macintosh-announcement party
at Apple on May 4. It was GREAT!! In a Wall Street Journal ad placed that
day, Apple announced 100 day sales of 72,000. Hence publication in the
press of the 'ballpark' number of 70,000.
Message 15 -- ************************
Mail-From: PATTERMANN created at 15-May-84 15:40:54
Return-Path: <Piersol.pasa@Xerox.ARPA>
Received: from Xerox.ARPA by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Tue 15 May 84 08:05:38-PDT
Received: from PinotNoir.ms by ArpaGateway.ms ; 15 MAY 84 08:03:50 PDT
Date: Tue, 15 May 84 08:05 PDT
From: Piersol.pasa@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: flame about color Macs...
In-reply-to: <8405130619.AA15785@ihnp4.ATT.UUCP>
To: ihnp4!utzoo!henry@UCB-VAX.ARPA
cc: info-mac@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA
ReSent-date: Tue 15 May 84 15:40:54-PDT
ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann <PATTERMANN@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
ReSent-To: info-mac: ;
I agree with some of Henry Spencer's points in his message, but think
some further points about color need to be made.
The usefulness of color in a machine relates directly to the complexity
of the information being displayed. For relatively simple information,
like text or simple graphics, monochrome is fine, and indeed has
advantages. For more complex information, such as VLSI, or high quality
graphics displaying complex information, color is highly desirable. It
is not at all clear to me that color is 'a fad' of limited usefulness
generally. I think you'll find color a significant advantage in most
programs if used sparingly. Highlighting errors, key words, commands,
etc. are all valid and useful applications for color. If high quality
color can be obtained, it should be.
The range of color needed for such high quality applications is has as
yet not been produced in what I'd call a personal machine. You can
expect to spend at least $15k for a system with all the requisite bit
planes, local intelligence, resolution monitor, etc., and that doesn't
include the main processor. If you want such a system, don't expect it
an a machine that sells for under $5k for a while.
Since we have not seen good color on personal machines yet, resolution
and clarity are the next items of importance. I'm glad Apple provided
us with a superior black and white display package, rather than what
would very likely be a mediocre if not poor color display package. The
technology simply isn't around to do this at a reasonable price for a
personal machine. However, when such machines arrive, we can look for a
new first love besides Mac.
Kurt
Message 16 -- ************************
Mail-From: PATTERMANN created at 15-May-84 15:40:57
Return-Path: <TIM@MIT-MC>
Received: from MIT-MC by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Tue 15 May 84 10:09:49-PDT
Date: 15 May 1984 13:08-EDT
From: Tim McNerney <TIM @ MIT-MC>
Subject: Henry's flame about color Macs...
To: info-mac @ SUMEX-AIM
In-reply-to: Msg of 13 May 84 01:19:31 CDT (Sun) from ihnp4!utzoo!henry at Berkeley
ReSent-date: Tue 15 May 84 15:40:57-PDT
ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann <PATTERMANN@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
ReSent-To: info-mac: ;
Indeed, cheap color is a questionable feature except for games, and "real"
color is far too expensive for this market, but a monochrome display with
2 bits/pixel would go a L-O-N-G way. As the folks at MIT's Architecture
Machine Group have shown, given black and white plus two shades of gray you
can display images without the "jaggies" characteristic of raster displays,
and text has a "fully formed" look that is difficult to achieve even on
the high resolution 1 bit/pixel displays of $15k-$100 workstations.
Speculation:
Alan Kay is a stong proponent of this display technology. He may very
well convince Apple to introduce a Macintosh capable of displaying shades
of gray within the next couple of years.
Message 17 -- ************************
Mail-From: PATTERMANN created at 15-May-84 15:41:01
Return-Path: <rrees@bbncca.arpa>
Received: from bbn-unix by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Tue 15 May 84 15:35:49-PDT
Received: from BBNCCA.ARPA by BBN-UNIX ; 15 May 84 17:21:43 EDT
Date: Tue, 15 May 84 15:45:17 EDT
From: Bob Rees <rrees@BBN-UNIX.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Query on rs232/422 mac connectors
In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 14 May 84 13:27:29 EDT
To: Dave Farber <farber@udel-ee.arpa>
Cc: info-mac@sumex-aim.arpa
ReSent-date: Tue 15 May 84 15:41:01-PDT
ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann <PATTERMANN@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
ReSent-To: info-mac: ;
> We are getting about 2.5 volts out of our mac on pin 7. Is that
> normal? I believe the specs for rs232 say > 3 volts
Pin 7 (of the Mac serial port connector) is an INPUT pin. It connects
to both CTS (for modem-style handshake input) and TRxC (for external
clock input) of the 8530 SCC chip. The theory is that applications
requiring CTS don't need an external clock, and vice versa. You get to
choose the function of pin 7 by setting up the registers in the 8530
chip -- disable CTS interrupt and select external clocking to use TRxC,
enable CTS interrupt and select internal clocking to use CTS. Although
the 8530 chip can also be programmed to use TRxC as an output pin (clock
source), I have been unable to get this mode to work. My suspicion is
that pin 7 goes to the input of a line receiver chip whose output goes
to the CTS & TRxC pins of the 8530. The line receiver is some sort of
TTL buffer/driver with input bias/clamping/hysteresis to provide
RS-232/422/423 (as well as TTL-level) input compatibility. The 2.5
volts that you see is just the open-circuit input bias voltage of that
line receiver. Hope that this explanation has helped to demystify the
Mac's serial ports.
- Bob Rees
Message 18 -- ************************
Mail-From: PATTERMANN created at 16-May-84 09:55:39
Return-Path: <markov%umass-cs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Received: from csnet-relay by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Tue 15 May 84 21:40:35-PDT
Received: From umass-cs.csnet by csnet-relay; 16 May 84 0:10 EDT
Date: Tue, 15 May 84 19:06 EST
From: Steve Epstein <markov%umass-cs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
To: info-mac@sumex-aim.arpa
cc: markov%umass-cs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa
Subject: Query: CSI Forth
ReSent-date: Wed 16 May 84 09:55:39-PDT
ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann <PATTERMANN@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
ReSent-To: info-mac: ;
Are there some CSI MacForth users out there who have had enough experience
with the product to post a review?
Steve Epstein
Message 19 -- ************************
Mail-From: PATTERMANN created at 16-May-84 09:55:41
Return-Path: <Mnh%toronto.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Received: from csnet-relay by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Tue 15 May 84 23:37:33-PDT
Received: From toronto.csnet by csnet-relay; 16 May 84 2:20 EDT
Date: 15 May 84 15:11:35-EDT (Tue)
From: Mark Hume: U. of Toronto <mnh%toronto.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>;
To: info-mac@sumex-aim.arpa
cc: mnh%toronto.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa
Subject: General comments on MacDraw, Microsoft Word etc.
ReSent-date: Wed 16 May 84 09:55:41-PDT
ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann <PATTERMANN@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
ReSent-To: info-mac: ;
I have just used the Beta (or Alpha or whatever) test versions of
MacDraw and Microsoft Word and have a few (biased) comments on them.
MacDraw- Looks as good as Lisa Draw. Reduce and Reduce to Fit are
great commands.
Draw doesn't (yet?) accept MacPaint pictures from the clipboard.
Why is there no undo command?
There seems to be something called show scrap which appears to be
the Clipboard, it should be called show clipboard.
Microsoft Word- I really don't like the properties command
as the way to change a font. This is a many step process
as compared to the simple method in MacWrite. It seems they
should keep font, size, and style commands under a main heading
in the menu line. (Changing fonts with the properties command is a
real pain!).
It seems that this program needs the fat Macs (512K) because it runs
out to disk just to pop down menus. It's also very slowwwww scrolling.
An aside on MacWrite- I noticed that MacWrite allows you to resize the window
you are working in but does not allow you to close it using the close
box. Hmm, is Apple planning to have multiple Write windows.
I also noticed that the Header and Footer windows are still open under
the Write window when you are in show header (or footer). It seems
that hide header (or footer) has two effects. It hides the header
window, and it also hides (removes) the headers in the document.
Aren't these really two seperate operations?
An aside on MacPaint- I really wish MacPaint would scroll the window when you
hit the edge. It fools you into thinking it is remembering text when
you type past the edge (but no, it's not remembering it). This would
also allow you to make squares and circles etc. larger than the window
which would be nice.
A general comment on file names: Why are there Mac filenames in the release
and pre-release software that have a dot (period,extension) in them.
Example: test.bas for a basic program. Clearly it is a basic
program, the Icon tells us this (or if you are in the age of directory
listings the type of the file is clearly displayed). Just call the file
test! In fact, if you really want two words in the name, just use two
words and have a blank, rather than a period separating them.
--------------------
Message 20 -- ************************
Mail-From: PATTERMANN created at 16-May-84 09:55:47
Return-Path: <@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA:"DENNIS GRIESSER"@HIS-LA-CP6.ARPA>
Received: from CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Wed 16 May 84 05:53:47-PDT
Received: from HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA by CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA dial; 16-May-1984 08:51:12-edt
Received: from HIS-LA-CP6.ARPA by HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA dial; 15-May-1984 20:03:38-mst
Date: Tue, 15 May 84 18:51 PST
From: DENNIS GRIESSER at HIS-LA-CP6.ARPA
To: INFO-MAC at SUMEX-AIM
ReSent-date: Wed 16 May 84 09:55:47-PDT
ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann <PATTERMANN@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
ReSent-To: info-mac: ;
About the program for color on the MAC...
A few transactions ago, somebody posted a program that displays color
on the Mac. Very little documentation was provided. Although I don't
have a Mac, I know a little about the technique that was used.
It's called "subjective color". It can be produced on monochrome (!)
displays by flashing the item to be colored on and off in a certain
sequence. There is really no color there, and a camera won't show
colors. It's all done by tricking the eye and brain.
Some people who are normally color-blind have no trouble seeing these
subjective colors. Some folks with perfect vision can't see one or
more of the subjective colors. I don't know what factors are involved
in who can and cannot see this effect.
This phenomenon has been known for years. It is usually demonstrated
by spinning a disk that carries strategically spaced dark and light
areas. This is the first I have heard about software to produce
subjective color. Some proposals have been made for hardware to
produce this effect, but I have not heard of a commercial product
that uses it.
For the insatiably curious, there was a good article on this topic in
BYTE many years ago. Try looking around 1977.
Message 21 -- ************************
Mail-From: PATTERMANN created at 16-May-84 11:53:37
Return-Path: <Thomka.es@Xerox.ARPA>
Received: from Xerox.ARPA by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Wed 16 May 84 10:09:36-PDT
Received: from CheninBlanc.ms by ArpaGateway.ms ; 16 MAY 84 10:02:28 PDT
Date: Wed, 16 May 84 10:02 PDT
From: Thomka.es@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Re: flame about color Macs...
In-reply-to: "Piersol.pasa's message of Tue, 15 May 84 08:05 PDT"
To: Piersol.pasa@XEROX.ARPA
cc: ihnp4!utzoo!henry@UCB-VAX.ARPA, info-mac@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA
ReSent-date: Wed 16 May 84 11:53:37-PDT
ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann <PATTERMANN@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
ReSent-To: info-mac: ;
Pertaining to your flame that
"You can expect to spend at least $15k for a system with all the
requisite bit
planes, local intelligence, resolution monitor, etc., and that doesn't
include the main processor. If you want such a system, don't expect it
an a machine that sells for under $5k for a while"
There is a NEC machine, I believe it is called the PC-100 that has a
color screen resolution of 720x512. The color selection is any sixteen
colors out of a total palet of 512 colors! It uses an 8086 micro and
supposedly is PC-Dos compatable. There is even a mouse used on the
machine. The price for this machine is about $3300, and that includes
the monitor. Of course you can get the monochrome version for about
$700 less.
I found out about this machine by reading InfoWorld. There is small
section in there stating that Woz (of Apple) was in Japan, late last
year, looking the thing over.
Chuck
Message 22 -- ************************
Mail-From: PATTERMANN created at 16-May-84 11:53:39
Mail-From: PATTERMANN created at 16-May-84 10:22:06
Return-Path: <info-micro-request@BRL-VGR.ARPA>
Received: from BRL-VGR by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Tue 15 May 84 12:49:38-PDT
Received: from xerox.arpa by BRL-VGR.ARPA id a001161; 15 May 84 14:14 EDT
Received: from CheninBlanc.ms by ArpaGateway.ms ; 15 MAY 84 11:09:34 PDT
Date: Tue, 15 May 84 11:01 PDT
Sender: MKrigel.ES@XEROX.ARPA
Subject: Random Apple News
To: info-micro@BRL-VGR.ARPA, MacIntosh^.pa@XEROX.ARPA,
AppleUsers^.es@XEROX.ARPA
from: MKrigell.es@XEROX.ARPA
ReSent-date: Wed 16 May 84 11:53:39-PDT
ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann <PATTERMANN@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
ReSent-To: info-mac: ;
If you can get a copy of this weeks (Monday May 14th) E Times, look to
section 3 for several articles on Apple, which I summarize below:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Macintosh
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Apple is currently producing 1500 Macintoshes per day with a factory
capacity of 2000/ day. Because of demand, etc, Apple is about to build
a second factory and plans to introduce a "Fat-Mac"; ie, a Macintosh
with a hard disk to compete with the IBM-PC (?) and XT (!). Tecmar and
Davong-Systems Inc will be introducing hard-disk add-ons for current
machines shortly.
** Macintosh all ready competes with the PC, the hard disk option
spoken
of will go head-to-head with the XT ** MK
Automation in the Apple factory keeps the labor cost of the Macintosh
down to 1-2% of manufacuring cost.
Macintosh is schedualed to expand into a "full product line" along with
Lisa.
Apple is said to be considering using the 68020 which is a full 32 bit
virtual-memory version of the 68000.
The "Fat-Mac" will offer a hard disk, either as a part of the whole
package or via upgrading of the interface ports, giving them the higher
performance expected with a hard disk. (512K of memory, double sided
disks, if Apple can get them, high speed (5-MHz) ports are
possibilities).
128K Macintoshes will be continued to be sold ($1950) with enhanced 512K
Macintoshes priced at $2950.
Macintosh software was designed for concurrency but at 128K the current
machine is not concurrent.
At a recent seminar, Apple demonstrated the development of a fully
functional Pascal which ran in only 2K of object code and noted that C
programs will be just as short. This is made possible by virtue of
extensive ROM routines which make writing the first program for the
Macintosh a "painful" experience.
A standalone Assembler/debugger should be available by July. The
debugger will feature multiple windows but will require 2 Mac's. A
simpler debugger will "also be available".
** Don't ask me what "also be available" means ** MK
A version of Forth is now available (Creative Solutions of Rockwell, Md)
and Pascal and C whould be available by December.
Availablity of external 3-1/2 inch disk drives is schedualled for May.
Microsopft has begun shipping the "bug-free" version of Multiplan. If
you sent in the warranty card, you get the update free.
Microsoft Word and enhanced database and chart programs will begin to be
shipped over the next 2 months.
Microsoft and Apple announced full support for letter-quality
(daisywheel) printing on the Macintosh!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Apple //e and //c
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The phrase Apple II forever continues to see daylight.
The Mouse for the Apple //c (by the way A.P.P.L.E. says "c" stands for
the C in 65C02) will cost (does cost?) $99. The same mouse port on the
//c will accomodate a nine pin D-connector for game paddles. Because
there are no expansion ports on the //c, Apple used several of the
inverse-flash characters for mouse support, as conrasted with the mouse
for the //e which uses an external 6805 based board ($149) for
interfacing. Thus in the //c the 65C02 does the x-y motion
calculations, while in the //e it is done by the external 6805.
The //e Mouse WILL (should) work on the ][+.
Marc
Message 23 -- ************************
Mail-From: PATTERMANN created at 17-May-84 08:21:49
Return-Path: <M.CHAD@SU-SIERRA.ARPA>
Received: from SU-SIERRA.ARPA by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Wed 16 May 84 16:16:47-PDT
Date: Wed 16 May 84 16:12:50-PDT
From: Chad Leland Mitchell <M.CHAD@SU-SIERRA.ARPA>
Subject: [L. Brett Glass <GLASS@SU-SIERRA.ARPA>: MACINTOSH FACTORY TOURS]
To: info-mac@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA
ReSent-date: Thu 17 May 84 08:21:49-PDT
ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann <PATTERMANN@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
ReSent-To: info-mac-stanford@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA
I thought this might be of general interest. Tours are currently about
2/3 full except Tuesday which is almost empty. Chad
---------------
Mail-From: GLASS created at 14-May-84 18:44:05
Date: Mon 14 May 84 18:44:04-PDT
From: L. Brett Glass <GLASS@SU-SIERRA.ARPA>
Subject: MACINTOSH FACTORY TOURS
To: BBOARD@LOTS-A, SU-BBOARDS@SU-SIERRA.ARPA
MACINTOSH FACTORY TOURS
-----------------------
During the week of May 21-25, the Stanford Student Chapter of the IEEE Computer
Society will be sponsoring tours of Apple's automated Macintosh factory. The
tours will leave Monday through Friday at 1:00 PM from the parking lot side of
Tresidder Union. Attendance will be limited to 30 people each day -- those
wishing to attend should sign one of the sign-up sheets in the EE Student
Lounge (1st floor McCullough). Attendees are strongly encouraged to bring
transportation....We will try to accommodate anyone who needs a ride.
We expect to be back on campus at or before 4:00 PM.
Questions? Send E-Mail to G.GLASS@LOTS-A or M.CHAD@SU-SIERRA.ARPA.
-------
-------
Message 24 -- ************************
Mail-From: PATTERMANN created at 17-May-84 08:22:06
Return-Path: <FRANK@UTAH-20.ARPA>
Received: from UTAH-20.ARPA by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Wed 16 May 84 21:06:58-PDT
Date: Wed 16 May 84 22:06:19-MDT
From: Randy Frank <FRANK@UTAH-20.ARPA>
Subject: imagewriter ribbons
To: info-mac@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA
ReSent-date: Thu 17 May 84 08:22:05-PDT
ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann <PATTERMANN@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
ReSent-To: info-mac: ;
we've had no luck getting new ribbons for Imagewriters from Apple (we've
had similarly little luck getting enough floppies, but at least we can
now get equivalent floppies from Memorex). Has anyone found another
source for ribbons? If so, do you have a vendor and/or distributor name
and part number?
-------
Message 25 -- ************************
Mail-From: PATTERMANN created at 17-May-84 08:22:10
Return-Path: <kalagher@mitre>
Received: from mitre by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Thu 17 May 84 06:33:49-PDT
Date: 17 May 1984 9:30:30 EDT (Thursday)
From: Dick Kalagher <kalagher@mitre>
Subject: Neat Mac Application
To: info-mac at sumex-aim
ReSent-date: Thu 17 May 84 08:22:10-PDT
ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann <PATTERMANN@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
ReSent-To: info-mac: ;
The following is a clever application of the Mac that I learned from a friend.
First he prepared a briefing using Macpaint to make most of his briefing charts.
He then wrote a memo explaining each chart. The body of the memo consists
of a number of paragraphs, each paragraph explaining a briefing chart.
The neat thing was that in the left hand margin there was a one by
one and a quarter inch version of the Macpaint briefing chart--not really
readable as such but clear enough that one could easily flip to the
full size chart attached to the memo.
To do this, he used the "show page" option of Macpaint and saved the screen
to disk using Shift-Command-3. He then made this screen a Macpaint document
and selected the small screen and cut it into the scrapbook. Then he pasted
five or six of these screens into another Macpaint document and schrunk them
down to the appropriate size and lined them up down the left margin. He then
printed out this page.
Next he prepared the memo with Macwrite, leaving two and a half inch left
margin. He then ran the paper with the macpaint screens back through the
printer to print the memo.
This is easier to do than to explain! And it looks very impressive. How
about sharing some other interesting and not too obvious Mac applications?
-------