info-mac@uw-beaver (info-mac) (07/04/84)
From: Tony Siegman <SIEGMAN@SU-SIERRA.ARPA> [I'll rush this into print before Ed Patterman gets back and filters all this minor-league flaming out of info-mac]. AES -- I'm appalled and rather surprised to read (per J. Pournelle) that BIG companies frequently rip off software, including even relatively low-priced stuff. It's not that I think big companies are more moral than the rest of us; it's just that they usually seem to at least follow a formal appearance of playing by the rules, and then accomplishing any dirty deeds either by bending the rules, slipping through loopholes, or perverting the rulemakers themselves (i.e., making lots of big contributions to legislators and politicians). Also, it would seem almost easier for them to use their buying power and negotiate a bulk price with the vendor for whatever software they need. Maybe some of this piracy is done by the troops at lower levels, more or less without official knowledge, and really isn't company policy. Anyway, one counterweapon against the big guys might be just simply publicity, and the resulting embarrassment. There must be lots of ways the names and unsocial acts of such companies could be put out on bboards and nets, without running too much danger of getting a lawsuit in return. -------
info-mac@uw-beaver (info-mac) (07/04/84)
From: Peter Blicher <PB@SU-AI.ARPA> PB - Well, if you really want a solution, here's one. First of all, things will eventually get worse as everything becomes available in machine-readable form--newspapers, magazines, books, etc. If you can see it on a screen, you can copy it, so copying can only be impeded, not prevented, unless the hardware contains non-tamperable RSA boxes. Here's the reasoning for another solution. As long as the user has to pay a significant fee for use, there will be incentive for piracy. Therefore use should be free. As long as obtaining stuff from the source is more convenient than copying, there will be disincentive for piracy. Therefore everything should be readily obtainable. How does the originator get paid? By the Government, of course. More exactly, some central organization provides the data, notes how many copies have been sent out, and reimburses at some legislated rate (per word, per work, or whatever). Where does the money come from? Taxation, either general (like paying for the current copyright office, library of congress, roads for the common good, etc.) or on the reproduction equipment. To keep authors from ordering infinite copies to get extra royalties, the system has to allow only 1 copy per customer (in the appropriate sense--organizations would get more).
info-mac@uw-beaver (info-mac) (07/04/84)
From: Gloger.es@XEROX.ARPA Hey, that's a really great idea, having the government pay for everything and provide it free to us users! As long as it's free, I would like one of everything, of course, and so would almost everybody else I know, but that's no problem, the government will be paying for it anyway. Actually, I think I can improve on your solution, and save the government the chore of keeping track of how much to pay each source. Just have the government pay $1000 per day to every person and be done with it.
info-mac@uw-beaver (info-mac) (07/04/84)
From: Richard Reich <REICH@NYU-ACF1.ARPA> PLEASE -- knock it off! Dad's gone, guys, lets play with the... THANKS! -r (PS- There are numerous lists DESIGNED for bullshit. Please have fun there. It makes it much easier for non-participants to avoid stepping in it.) -------
info-mac@uw-beaver (info-mac) (07/05/84)
From: Bob English <lcc.bob@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA> This is similar to the arrangement worked out between ASCAP and colleges regarding performance of music at athletic events. The colleges play a single license fee to ASCAP for the rights to all ASCAP music. ASCAP then distributes the royalties based on play statistics, TV time, etc. It doesn't involve the government. --bob--
info-mac@uw-beaver (info-mac) (07/07/84)
From: Jerry E. Pournelle <POURNE@MIT-MC> (1) recall, I was expressing the view of Borland International (and in deed of Peter Winer of Think Tank) that big outfits copy software and distribute it internally. I have no evidence other than that JPL does NOT do that. (2) The publicity counterweapon seems ideal, provided that one has real evidence of the practice; truth is a good defense at libel actions. I'd rather see lots of publicity about ripoff outfits than see copy protection..
info-mac@uw-beaver (info-mac) (07/12/84)
From: Bosseler.ES@XEROX.ARPA Paul I think you missed the main point. Not everyone would be QUALIFIED to receive the free software - just registered software developers who have paid a small fee to the "central organization" AND passed their entrance requirements (just like defense contractors). And of course the head of that gov't department would be an intelligent, "career" bureaucrat just like the ones managing public transportation, military procurement, and the IRS. The neat part about all this is that we would all get paid the same no matter what the worth as long as the software was acceptable by the bureaucrat. And the public would pay and pay whether they wanted the stuff or not - isn't that a novel idea? After all, who is better qualified to purchase and distribute software than the gov't? Tom
info-mac@uw-beaver (info-mac) (07/14/84)
From: allegra!cbosgd!mark (Mark Horton) Working for a large corporation, perhaps I can shed a little light on the reasons for copying. (No, I haven't done any such illegal copying, nor do I know anyone here who has. But I've been tempted a few times, and I can't say I never will.) Big organizations have big bureaucracies to deal with. Chances are very good that these bureaucracies, called "purchasing", "receiving", and the like, are unionized. This means they effectively report to nobody - they sure don't report to anybody who has anything to do with the people we technical types report to. They are also very secure in their jobs (due to the union) and tend to get rotated around to ensure that a new purchasing person is always being broken in. They seldom have any incentive to make me happy. (I'll have to tell you about our clerk sometime - plays a mean game of rogue and gets xerox copies back to us in about a week on the average.) If I want a copy of the Framus C compiler, which costs $500, to get it legally here's what I have to do. First I have to talk to my supervisor and orally get him/her to agree that I should buy it. Then I fill out a Xerox copy of a purchase order, listing what I want, what it costs, a recommended supplier, what account to charge it to, and who I am. (I'm luck that it's under $5000, if it weren't I'd have to either put it out for bids (!) or write a letter explaining why I'm not putting it out for bids.) I take this form to the person who types up purchase orders. (I can't type it up myself because this person has to decide what people have to sign it, and assign it a temporary PO number.) The form sits in this person's inbox for about a week until the person gets around to typing it up. They type it onto an official PO form and route it to a half dozen or so people for signatures. It's dropped into the company mail to go to the first person (no, I can't wait and pick it up, unless I want to wait a week.) The first 3 or 4 people are all here in the building, so if it doesn't get lost on someone's desk, within another week it may have most of the signatures. Then it goes via company mail to the official purchasing organization in New Jersey. They sign it, assign it a real PO number, and phone it in. If I'm not real anxious for it, they'll drop it in the mail a few days later, and the supplier will ship it after their own bureacracy is placated (often there are a few passes through the mails to get a license signed.) Then they ship it. It gets shipped UPS, and appears on our loading dock a few days later. If I'm lucky, the person on the loading dock won't lose it or steal it (the unionized employees will sign for anything, but this does not mean they take responsibility for it - if it disappears that's our loss. You'd be amazed at the things that have been stolen.) A few days later, it suddenly shows up on my desk. Total elapsed time: one month minimum. Or I could walk down the hall to my friend and borrow his disk for 5 minutes.
info-mac@uw-beaver (01/03/85)
From: INTMET@BBNA.ARPA Dear Editor, Please, please, please, do not let the info-mac mailing list go down the tubes in a discussion of copy protection. Please work to maintain the list as focused on Macintosh technical issues. thanks for all the hard work it must be to run this thing! Ben Hyde. [Thanks Ben, I agree. Attached is 'the final word' on copy protection. Please post any future discussion of this to info-micro, net.micro, etc.] ------- Return-Path: <dlc@LANL> Received: from LANL.ARPA by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Tue 1 Jan 85 15:48:33-PST Received: from a.ARPA by LANL.ARPA (4.12/4.7) id AA28470; Tue, 1 Jan 85 16:47:35 mst Received: by a.ARPA (4.12/4.7) id AA10289; Tue, 1 Jan 85 16:48:31 mst Date: Tue, 1 Jan 85 16:48:31 mst From: dlc@LANL (Dale Carstensen) Message-Id: <8501012348.AA10289@a.ARPA> Subject: Re: Music/Protection Newsgroups: ar.info-mac To: INFO-MAC@SUMEX-AIM References: <18742@lanl.ARPA> > From: Chad Leland Mitchell <CHAD@SU-SCORE.ARPA> > helped write the ConcertWare package and my opinions will have some influence > on Great Wave's decision about copy protection. As I have read the messages > in which people have expressed the desire to influence copy protection > decisions, I realized that I could extend that opportunity. Please let me > know your opinions, suggestions, and ideas. I have not seen the following thought in any published or network discussion of protection and piracy. A game developer I know says the concern of the industry in the 1983-84 timeframe was mostly the computer retail stores that copy several games to be included FREE if you buy the computer that runs them, as a sales inducement. A "sting" operation could be effective against such tactics, but who would bear the costs of posing as a customer at such stores and purchasing a system with such a package of "goodies?" And, would out-of- court settlements be worthwhile, and could convictions be gained in court? Clearly, many stores have access to the expertise that could break your type 2, or even type 3 protection. Maybe circumstances have changed, too, surely no large chain would risk its reputation by committing such crimes. I wonder, myself, about the effect of "bundling" in general. It started in the micro-computer industry, I believe, with the Osborne I. It was a strong legal point in the late 60's and early 70's in showing IBM's predatory tactics. I notice, and I think it is very significant, that only BASIC, not even PC-DOS, is bundled with the IBM PC. So whether done by illegal copying, or through bulk purchase contracts, bundling is a tactic the mighty fear more than the tiny do. Perhaps I've digressed too much already, but I think another point that makes a difference on whether you use copy-protection is what use the software is to the customer. If it is going to be used in a manner that it is of critical importance to the customer, then two other items need to be examined. 1. Will the vendor provide upgrades and maintenance? How? What price? 2. Will the vendor compensate the customer for loss of use of the program because the customer's only (protected) copy failed and couldn't be replaced for several days? I think, in general, that the software should be unprotected, and that source, in listing form, or in machine-readable form, should be available at a reasonably higher price. Have software manufacturers considered how much money they have collected for software, protected or not, that is NEVER used? Doesn't it all balance out in the end? I've spent over $2000 for software, I use about 10% of it, and I spent about 10% of the total on that. And I write software, I've always been paid by the hour for it except in one case. In that case, I lost money on the hardware part of the project, so the software work was a total loss. My point is, if the company's success hinges on copy-protection, it isn't worth much. Deal with your customers (from distribution through retail to end- user) fairly and produce a product that's worth having. All you'll do with that other mickey-mouse is make some law firm(s) rich and make the people that know which way is up dislike you (at the least). Return-Path: <PALLAS@SU-SCORE.ARPA> Received: from SU-SCORE.ARPA by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Wed 2 Jan 85 11:24:45-PST Date: Wed 2 Jan 85 10:59:17-PST From: Joseph I. Pallas <PALLAS@SU-SCORE.ARPA> Subject: Re: Music/Protection To: CHAD@SU-SCORE.ARPA cc: info-mac@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA In-Reply-To: Message from "Chad Leland Mitchell <CHAD@SU-SCORE.ARPA>" of Sun 30 Dec 84 14:59:53-PST Punishing the naive user seems like the worst thing to do. There is nothing more frustrating than to be presented with this marvelous user interface and suddenly being told "Sorry, you can't do that." It is wrong at a very basic level, because it puts the computer in control of the user instead of the correct relationship. Even the naive user will realize this at some (perhaps unconscious) level: the machine could do what I've asked, but it refuses. Mark that down as Apple's most serious error, in making such a mechanism part of their system. I won't buy software I can't back up/copy, unless it's dirt cheap. If I ever get a hard disk, which I would like someday to do, I won't buy software I can't back up/copy. As a non-naive user, I might buy software with level 2 (trivial) copy protection. If I do, it is with misgivings. The naive user might buy software without concern for its copy protection--once. I think that would have a sufficient impact on software sales to reduce the total number of programs marketed (excepting, of course, copy programs). I recommend selling a good product at a reasonable price with no copy protection. joe ------- Return-Path: <imagen!geof@su-shasta.arpa> Received: from su-shasta.arpa by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Wed 2 Jan 85 17:03:46-PST Received: from imagen by Shasta with UUCP; Wed, 2 Jan 85 17:03 PST Date: Wednesday, 2 Jan 1985 11:06-PST To: shasta!CHAD@SU-SCORE.ARPA Cc: shasta!info-mac@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA Reply-To: imagen!geof@shasta Phone: (408) 986-9400 (work) Postal-Address: IMAGEN, 2650 San Thomas Expressway, Santa Clara, CA 95052 Real-Name: Geoffrey H. Cooper Subject: Re: Music/Protection In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu 27 Dec 84 01:03:38-PST. From: imagen!geof@su-shasta.arpa I think that a protected subsystem approach would be nice here. First I must admit to being somewhat naive about the programming interface to the MAC. But what occurs to me is that the vendor of a package should include a program for copying the package with it. The program copies the package and itself, and modifies something (probably a key hidden somewhere in the code) to preserve its state. Obviously the scheme is not 100% safe, since a hacker can reverse the damage, unbeknownst to the program. But the idea is to discourage idle theivery both by making it difficult to copy the program illegally and making it simple to use it on a hard disk or make backup copies. Here is one idea that might be close to working. Mac-hackers, please dash this to pieces as appropriate, but also be creative about making the idea work another way. There are two executable programs on a disk that you buy, both copy protected. One program runs the service you bought, the other is the copy program. The copy program will not run from a write-protected disk. It is set up to allow one backup copy to coexist, and one copy on a hard disk. When you run it, it lets you make a copy on a second floppy. This copy is also copy protected, and is subtly modifed such that it is not copyable by the copy program. The copy also has a ``Time bomb'' in it (which might as well be user selectable, but let's say it is 1 month). You put the original diskette in a safe place, and only use the copy. After a month the copy refuses to work until you `recharge' the time bomb using the master diskette's copy program. This takes about 20-30 seconds max, and allows the master diskette to track when the copy's bomb will go off. The master diskette will let you make another copy of the program if you either supply the existing copy, which it invalidates (so that you can switch to a less flakey diskette), or if the existing copy's time bomb has expired (hence why time bombs should be user-settable). If I trash my backup copy, I can still use the master disk, although this is living dangerously. After the time bomb for the backup copy expires, I can make another backup copy. I think that the above would work for diskette based software. Hard disks pose some other problems if you can't copy-protect a program that is on a hard disk. I leave the details as an exercise for the reader, or other mac'ers out there. - Geof