info-mac@uw-beaver (07/23/85)
From: John Mark Agosta <INFO-MAC-REQUEST@SUMEX-AIM.arpa>
INFO-MAC Digest Saturday, 20 Jul 1985 Volume 3 : Issue 24
Today's Topics:
PICTs for your app, and Shared Applications
Re: Trouble connecting 512K Macs to DEC-20s
Follow-up on overheating
LISPs for the Mac?
Andy Hertzfeld conference on MAUG
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 85 01:51:56 pdt
From: Leo Hourvitz <leo%apple.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: PICTs for your app, and Shared Applications
A posting was made a few issues ago about using PICT resources
in applications. Although I'm sad to report I don't know
any great solutions either, there are a couple of techniques
used around here that might be useful.
One way to develop an application that uses PICTs is to have the
application open a particular resource file when launched and
only close it just before quitting. Then, when you use the
method described before to get the PICT out of MacDraw, you
can paste it into this resource file, and never have to deal
with it again. For example, you might get your picture and
paste it into a file called "MyApp resources". Then your application,
MyApp, would do an OpenResFile of "MyApp resources" at entry
and close it at exit. Anywhere within it, it could get the PICT
just by doing a GetResource of the picture.
One nice thing about this is that although you can't use just
any disk (you have to use one with the resource file on it),
you can at least use the Finder to copy the file. Also,
when you're through with the development cycle and you want to
release the application, just take out the Open- and CloseResFile
calls and copy the PICTs into the app's resource file with the
resource editor. This gets you back into one file with no
changes to most of your code.
About applications and file servers:
We also did some experimenting with sharing applications on a server
awhile ago, and ran into most of the same problems that Dartmouth
encountered. One trick that we learned is this: when you have a
shared disk, you don't want your Mac to switch-launch to it (i.e.,
you don't want your MAc to use it's system file as the current system
file). Why? Because you write to your own system file now and
then, as well as writing to your system volume a lot. The usual
way to prevent switch-launching is to delete either the Finder
or System; however, that means you can't boot the disk. One trick
we used was to set the Finder to invisible with SetFile or FEdit.
This prevents switch-launching but allows booting. Obviously, that
isn't a particularly good long-range solution. The sad moral of the
story is that Mac apps tend to be disgustingly single-user, single-machine
oriented.
Hope it helps,
Leovitch
Leo Hourvitz
leo@apple.csnet
------------------------------
Date: Thu 18 Jul 85 13:49:48-EDT
From: Alan Crosswell <US.ALAN@CU20B.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Trouble connecting 512K Macs to DEC-20s
Are you connecting them on the modem or printer port? The 512K system board
includes an updated ROM containing the Applebus drivers. When you boot the
machine, the Mac sends out an applebus broadcast on the applebus(printer)
port. This looks like line noise (probably a line break condition) if the
printer port is hooked to RS232. I'm not 100% sure of this, since I heard
it 3rd hand, but there is definitely something that goes out on the printer
port when you boot since we had our LaserWriter connected to RS232 and
applebus simultaneously (but only using one or the other at any one time).
Whenever it was in rs232 mode and a Mac booted, it would get an ioerror
from the 9-pin port.
/a
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 85 08:39:52 pdt
From: jww@SDCSVAX (Joel West @ CACI) (ttyd0)
Subject: Follow-up on overheating
A month back there was a long discussion about Mac overheating. To this day,
I'm convinced that the reason several disks were trashed was that the Mac got
too hot and confused. I have two follow-up items.
First, Levco Enterprises (619 457-2011) here in San Diego is selling a 3 mW
piezo-electric fan for $40. They claim it is better than most in that it
is quiet, moves just enough air, and doesn't generate a magnetic field.
They solder two wires to the analog board, but the fan itself is strapped
inside the Mac using velcro (?!) Duane Maxwell, the Levco techie, also
claimed that the position of the hyperdrive fan (top right rear) was
inappropriate, and theirs (bottom left) was where it would do most good.
Availability of the Fan-kenstein Fan may be somewhat limited for a while.
Apparently, they only have a limited supply and most (all?) are allocated
to their MonsterMac 512->2mb memory upgrade. With the fan, the 2mb Mac
had a lower internal temperature than some 128's and all 512's, they claim.
Before I heard about this, I went down to my electronics store, bought a
20watt 4" 120vac fan. It's way too strong as is, but a ceiling fan
speed control drops it to a reasonable level, though adding an annoying
hum. ($30 investment so far). I have a piece of perforated metal (for
a screen door kick panel) over the finger holes.
So far, I've been pushing air in the right bottom. It runs hottest on
the top left, so I'll probably velcro my mac and the fan and place
the fan on top of the mac, pulling air out. As a permanent, portable
solution, I'll probably buy the Levco fan.
(I have no connection with Levco, etc., other than I've met Duane once).
Joel West CACI, Inc. - Federal (c/o UC San Diego)
{ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4}!sdcsvax!jww
jww@SDCSVAX.ARPA
------------------------------
Date: Thu 18 Jul 85 08:54:46-PDT
From: Marvin Zauderer <ZAUDERER@SU-SUSHI.ARPA>
Subject: LISPs for the Mac?
It looks like the current version of ExperLISP is not an adequate development
tool. Expertelligence freely admits this, but claims that the new "developer's
version" will be available "around September or October". Great news (sigh).
Does anyone have info about other LISPs for the Mac? I've heard about Utah's
PSL; perhaps someone from Utah could send me a description. Also, I've heard
that someone is working on a Scheme-like product (in Pennsylvania?). I
hoping to find a true "developer's LISP"; at last glance, it didn't seem that
something like XLISP would suit my needs.
I apologize if this issue has been discussed here before, and I'll post a
summary of the responses.
Thanks!
------------------------------
Date: Thu 18 Jul 85 21:59:35-PDT
From: Jean-Luc Brouillet <BROUILLET@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
Subject: Andy Hertzfeld conference on MAUG
The following is a transcript of an on-line conference with
Andy Hertzfeld. I found this on MacSaugus (617-231-2810,
two lines, 1200 baud). [ I have selected a few of the q & a's
from this 39k file, to post on the bboard. The complete file
resides in <info-mac>news-ahconf.txt -jma ]
- ------------------------------------------------------------
(James Schenck) ANDY = I'd like to know what is happening with SWITCHER
release.
(Andy Hertzfeld) I'm currently on 4.0, which has been thoroughly tested
and should be uploaded here and shipped to dealers before the end
of the month. I'm not working on it anymore until the fall.
(Chris (DOTP)) Andy, before switcher 2.5 I talked you about our Time and
Mousepos da's using the right menu bar that you use for arrows. You said
the arrows could be turned off. I can't find the command in the switcher
doc to turn off the arrows.
(Andy Hertzfeld) There is a way to turn off the arrows under program
control. I'm writing a document called "Inside Switcher" that reveals
that and many other little tricks. It should be finished and uploaded
here in a week or so.
(Bill Nicotera) WHO'S IDEA WAS IT TO INCORPORATE THE MOUSE WITH THE MAC?
(Andy Hertzfeld) I guess it was Steve Jobs' idea. Jef Raskin hates mice;
when Steve took over he changed the direction of the project to "the
people's Lisa". Bill Atkinson was a big supporter of the mouse for Lisa.
(Bill Bates) Andy, If I'm sending, thanks for promoting my ThunderScan to
LaserWriter package... that's it.
(Andy Hertzfeld) You're welcome. I didn't try too hard to include in the
next release of the TScan software because I saw that you had already
done it.
(Steve Ura) Andy- Will the finder in ROM hurt those
with non-Apple 512K and/or Hyperdrives?
(Andy Hertzfeld) The Finder will not be in ROM in the 128K ROMs. Most
everybody will be able to easily upgrade to the 128K ROMs since all Macs
have socketed ROMs.
(Eric Wainwright) Which parts of the ROM did you actually write, and
which part was the hardest?
(Andy Hertzfeld) I wrote about 30 percent of the ROM including most of the
Toolbox (everything except TextEdit, Resources and Dialogs). Different
parts are hard for different reasons. The most intense part was IOCore,
because you have to worry about interrupt-type problems. Much of the
toolbox was difficult because I had to re-write it many time because our
goals kept changing. So far, I have written five different font managers!
(Bill Gibson) Andy, I have two questions. 1. How far off are 128k ROMs and
did you help write them too. are there any plans to support the Lazer
writer at 300 DPI?
(Andy Hertzfeld) The only thing I did for the new ROMS was a new font
manager. The new font manager supports fractional character widths which
will be a big help at improving the laserWriter at 300 dpi
(Jim Leslie) Neil have you used any of the cache floppy utilities now
being advertised, and if so, do they provide a better solution..
(Andy Hertzfeld) Caches are certainly much better than RAM disks, but they
also require quite a bit of memory to be effective. I use TurboCharger,
but not that much because the version I have doesn't work with hard disks.
(John Gallaugher) ANDY, In your opinion... What is the best development
system for the Macintosh.. and WHY ?
(Andy Hertzfeld) A lot depends on what languages you like and your
personal working style. I write all my programs in assembly and use the
MDS system. I expect the forthcoming "MPS" system from Apple (which
includes a C and Pascal compiler, as well as an assembler) to be the most
popular environment if it ever gets finished.
(Bob Abeles) What delights do you have in store for us?
(Andy Hertzfeld) Well, I'm trying to take it easy this summer. I'm
currently working on a double-sized cursor hack for some near-sighted
MAUGers who requested it. I'm planning some major enhancements to
Switcher in the Fall (disk based partitions) and a few other things
that are too ephemeral to talk about now
(Jon Mir) TSCAN & BAR CODES....ANY FUTURE?
(Andy Hertzfeld) yeah, but with TScan they'd be more like "dot codes"
than bar codes. I really would like to get around to that one because I
think I could fit about 40K on a single page. Thanks for reminding me...
(JESS HEIMLICH) ANDY, FIRST OF ALL, ON BEHALF OF ALL OF US, THANKS 1000000X.
IS ANYBODY MAKING A PRODUCT WHICH WILL DO TEXT AND GFX THE WAY
THUNDERSCANNER WORKS?
(Andy Hertzfeld) It's certainly possible to do it with ThunderScan, but it
may be too slow to be real practical. I think Bill Bates, who was here
(Bill Bates) Still is...
(Andy Hertzfeld) a little while ago, has something along those lines
already working.
(Neil-SYSOP) Bill Bates..want to comment??
(Bill Bates) Anyway, I have Thundercan to PostScript software. Also some
experimental ThunderScan OCR. I'm also getting good results with
MacVision which can go to very high horizontal res but has vertical scan
lines in the picture. I'm trying to build a poor man's Kurtzwile (sp?).
(Dave Vargo) What are your impressions of the Amiga, is it a more worthy
competitor to the Mac than the Atari St. In terms of the Lisa, a mail
merge program should have been offered if the machine was seriously
intended to appeal to business.
(Andy Hertzfeld) I don't have an Amiga, but I played with one. It has
significantly more capabilities than the Atari, but it will be priced a
lot more expensively. The Amiga's sound capabilities are truly
great, blowing away both the Mac and the Atari. I think software
is what matters the most, and both atari and Amiga are WAY behind
the Mac in that regard. Don't ask me about mail merge, that's
a question for some marketing guy. You may be right, but its
beyond me
('Bill C/Alt) There has been much speculation about the next version of the
MAC having a 68010 or a 68020 Processor. Comment on the possibility and
are these processors capable of being compatable with the 68000 (upward)
second Will Apple release the details of the 7/7 operating
system so that third party support will be possible??
(Andy Hertzfeld) Exception handling is different on the 010 and 020
so there can be some compatibility problems. The new (128K) ROM will be
compatible with both the 010 and 020 but everybody's applications
may not be. The truth is that Apple has at least 3 candidates for the
"next Mac" under development so its hard to say which ones will be
for real. I see no reason that Apple wouldn't release source code
to the Lisa OS, as they are not supporting themselves anymore and
would love to have some third pary support it
(Mike Ginsberg) Andy, I now have a 128K mac and would upgrade to 512k IF
The switcher would allow me to do multitasking.
Any possibility of me upgrading my mac in the near future?
(Andy Hertzfeld) The Switcher supports a limited form of multi-tasking;
applications have to be modified to take advantage of it. The new version
of ThunderScan can scan in the background under Switcher now. You should
want to upgrade for more important reasons than that, though
(Steve Brecher) A list of ROM bugs not patched in RAM is not available
from Tech Support. You've mentioned several such bugs in MAUG messages.
Would you consider making a list of those you know about and uploading it?
(Andy Hertzfeld) Sure, I could try but it wouldn't be as complete as the
one that Apple has. Also, some things tread the fine line between bugs
and features so are a matter of personal opinion. When I'm back
next week, I'll try to convince them to make the "official" list
used by the 128K ROM people available
(Steve Brecher) Understood. Thanks!
(Keith Esau) Is there any way to create or plan to support .MAP files from
lisa pascal for use with MacDB
(Andy Hertzfeld) Sure, it's certainly possible. You'd have to write a
translator to pull the symbols out of the ".OBJ" format into
the ".MAP" format. Since both formats are fairly simple and
well documented, it wouldn't be hard, BUT Apple is working
hard on their own new development environment that will have
a symbolic debugger that's not compatible with either format, so
maybe it would be a waste of effort
(Dennis Alvernaz) Andy, what performance in speed is probable
with new ROMS and where?
(Andy Hertzfeld) The resource manager is the single place that was speeded
up the most. Beleive it or not, but QuickDraw was significantly speeded
up, too, as well as a bunch of other places. It's difficult to say since
every application does things a little differently, but new ROMs
coupled with the new 3.5 drives cupt application
launch time at least in half, usually more
(Andy Pickett) Andy, any word on the 20 meg that plugs
Andy, any word on the 20 meg that plugs into the disk-drive port, how can
we get info? And... What are your thoughts on NEON! by Kriya Systems?
(Andy Hertzfeld) Apple has announced the 20 meg drive that plugs into the
disk port. They realize it's very important to get it out ASAP so
they're working real hard on it now. It will use the new hierarchical
file system loaded in RAM, because it will be out before the
new ROMs are available. A consequence of that is it will only
run on 512K or bigger machines. More info should be available
in the fall. Neon is an interesting idea, but good language
systems take a long time to mature and theirs is still in its
very early stages. I think it's not yet a practical environment
for commercial programming, but is interesting for fun
(Franklin Tessler) This node is going crazy... sorry. Andy: Apple
has announced an October shipping date for the 20 Meg drives...
did you mean earlier then that the ROMs would be out after
that. Also, will Switcher 4.0 be an "official" release?
(Andy Hertzfeld) Switcher 4.0 is the official released version. Yes, the
hard disk is currently supposed to come out before the new ROMs, so it
will run the new file system in RAM
...
(Craig McGowan) i don't know what happpend but, basically, my question was
regarding the ability of the the current os to handle network events
without polling.
(Andy Hertzfeld) Yes, the Mac currently does handle network events without
polling in software. The SCC chip does header recognition in hardware and
interrupts the OS when a packet comes in. The current AppleTalk software
is fairly sophisticated; the only real improvement that needs to be made
is that the file system doesn't handle concurrency very well yet.
(Randall Merkh) hi andy, What do you think of the Mac Revealed book?
(Andy Hertzfeld) I think it's pretty good, but still incomplete. I haven't
seen the 2nd volume yet, which is necessary if you want to write real
programs. It works best as a supplement to Inside Mac, rather than a
replacement for it.
(Tom Mackie) Andy - two ques... 1. The 3.0 doc says that Config for Laser
will be left out of the release version. Why? 2. Cuppertino is still the
bleak hole for USMail - is there a way to get ananswer to serious hardware
problems from them? (The local Reps say they don't really have much
authority...)
(Andy Hertzfeld) Room for LaserWriter was removed from Switcher because the
printing software was improved so things should work OK in a 128K
configuration (all except for MacWrite). It was confusing people so I
removed it. If you're having trouble reaching Apple by mail, try calling
them at (408) 996-1010; if you're persistent enough, you'll always get to
talk to someone who can help you
(Bill Gibson) A simple question. What is the status of MacBASIC and is Doug
Dennman still writing it. Also what does one do to Beta test for Apple?
(Andy Hertzfeld) MacBasic is all finished (finally). It was written by
Donn Denmann (not Doug). The only hold-up now is Apple trying to decide
if its worth releasing it, given the fact that MicroSoft Basic has gotten
fairly good and the headaches involved in maintaining and supporting a new
programming environment. If you want to be a beta-test site for Apple,
send a letter to someone like Guy Kawasaki (or maybe a message to Dan
Cochran on MAUG)
(Steve Rabalais) 1. IS IT POSSIBLE TO LOAD AND LOCK A CODE resource in more
than 64k bytes.
(Andy Hertzfeld) Yes, its possible. The problem has more to do with the
limitations of the 68000 than the Mac system. Since relative branches are
limited to 16-bit signed offsets, it's hard to have a code segment bigger
than 32K and still have every part be able to branch to every other
part. A linker could be constructed to handle it, but why bother?
(David Heller) Andy, if i do my own upgrade is apple going to support me
on the ROM upgrade and do you have any idea what the approx cost of the
ROM upgrade will be?
(Andy Hertzfeld) If you upgrade to more than 512K, make sure to keep the
screen at the top of the address space. Apple will try to sell the
ROMs as cheaply as they can. Since the ROMs will cost Apple around 20
dollars, I would expect them to sell for around 60 dollars or so.
(Eric Zocher) Two Q's: 1) Can you reveal any specifics about the contents
of the additional space in the new ROM(s) - will system resources like
Chicago FONT, MDEFs, WDEFs, CDEFs be in silicon? 2) Do you know when &
how info will be available about the new hierarchical file system? Will
software supplement purchasers be getting a new File Manager chapter
of IM? THANKS in advance!
(Andy Hertzfeld) The new ROM isn't frozen yet, so things are subject to
change, but I would expect the Chicago font (but no other fonts),
WDEF 0, MDEF 0, CDEFs for buttons and scrollbars and most of the PACKS
to be in the ROM. Info on the new file system should be available to
developers through the normal channels pretty soon. The new file system
is compatible with the old except for people who follow the FCB list
(the FCB size is different) or read the directory themselves. Most
software will run just fine because the "vRefNum" will mean the working
directory instead of default volume
(Dennis/AltSysop) Just a note - "Normal channels" includes DL8 of MacDev.
(Tim Pulling) Will there be an upgrade to replace the internal
drive with a double sided drive? I've heard there might be heat
considerations. Thanks. Done.
(Andy Hertzfeld) Yes, there will be an upgrade to replace the internal
drive. It will be optionally bundled with the new ROM so you only have
to open the Mac up once. It will be available in the same time frame
as the new ROM
(Peter Prime) I HAVE 4 XL'S AND A 512K. WHY DOESN'T SOFTWARE RUN ON BOTH.
THERE SEEMS TO BE ABOUT 30% OF THE 512K SOFTWARE THAT JUST WILL NOT RUN ON
THE XL. THANKS
(Andy Hertzfeld) The underlying hardware is pretty different on an XL from
the Mac, so there are are number of different types of incompatibilies
that arise. Most of them have to do with I/O in some form or another.
Of course, the XL does not have Macs sound capabilities, and any
application that writes directly to the screen must be careful about
rowBytes. In general, applications will run on the XL if the developers
care enough to code for it and thoroughly test them in that environment.
(Dave Vargo) Is there a chance of the 7/7 bug making draft printing slower
than high quality being fixed. I don't expect new software but bug fixes
are the responsibility of the manufacturer. Also are there plans for a
Mac compatible portable?
(Andy Hertzfeld) I think there are currently two programmers working
full-time on maintaining the 7/7 software so there is a good chance the
bug will get fixed. A portable Mac still looks pretty far away, since
it's still real tough to make a good-looking display with Mac resolution.
(Tim Pulling) I think that the TScan is fantastic...is there any chance
we'll see a lasso-type selection device that would make selecting oddly
shaped areas to half tone? (easier that is)
(Andy Hertzfeld) I really wanted to put that feature into my new release
(I know how to do it; its not that hard) but I ran out of time so it won't
be in the new release that will be available shortly. I promise to do it
for the release after that, which will probably be around the end of the
year
(Doug Quebbeman) Andy, 1st, will the Lisa Smalltalk find its way to the Mac,
2nd will the 32x32 mouse cursor have an editor/picker for the resource
editor or a separate application for editing the cursor.
(Andy Hertzfeld) Lisa SmallTalk should be available for the Mac, since Dan
Ingalls, the world's leading SmallTalk expert, has been working real hard
on it. I've seen it running on a 512K Mac, but I'm not sure what the
marketting plans are. The 32 by 32 cursor is going to bit-double the
16 by 16 cursor (that's the only way to do it and maintain software
compatibility, although I might special-case the arrow) so a special
resEdit driver is not necessary.
(Tom Mackie) Andy, much has been reported - especially on ARPAnet- as to
power supply/overheating problems. Can you comment? And do you indeed run
you Mac with the cover off?
(Andy Hertzfeld) Apple is pretty careful about testing things like that,
but its always possible to get a bad batch of components in and have
it slip through quality control. Before I got my Hyper, I used to run
a Mac without a cover, but that had nothing to do with overheating;
I was diddling around with the hardware about so it was more convenient
to leave the cover off. I did get a bad electric shock once;
I wouldn't recommend it.
(Eric Zocher) I just heard a rumor that a 24-pin Imagewriter II with
2 - 3 times the throughput of the Imagewriter is in the works.
Care to comment?
(Andy Hertzfeld) Yes, it's true, except I'm not sure how many elements are
on the printhead. It is considerably faster and does have much nicer
print quality.
(Laney Chouest) The folks at Odesta Helix tell me that they are waiting
for "standards" for the network and fileserver before they release
multi-user software.. Could you comment.. I am desperately looking for
the macintosh office..I need it
(Andy Hertzfeld) The network standards are pretty well established by now,
but the file server protocols are not, so it is prudent for them to wait.
The whole file server situation is pretty confused right now,
so I don't know what to tell you.
(Dennis/AltSysop) Tech Note 20 is on Data Servers on AppleTalk - it's in
MacDev DL8.
(Laney Chouest) On the Fileserver Will file password protection be on the
fileserver system or in the application software?
(Andy Hertzfeld) I don't know. Apple was developing a file server that had
some form of password protection in the system, but it was recently
cancelled and I'm not sure what the current strategy is.
(Vernon Keenan) I'm shopping for C compiler...can you recommend one?
(Andy Hertzfeld) Most people I know use the Consulair C compiler. It does
not generate very tight code, but it is fairly mature and is well
interfaced to the Mac system. Apple has a C compiler that should be
released as part of the MPS development system, but its currently
vaporware.
(Dennis/AltSysop) Latest release of Consulair Mac C generates code about as
good as any of the other native Mac Cs but it doesn't come close to
Workshop C.
(David Jacobs) Will there ever be an Apple Profile that can hook up to
both the Mac and Apple II.
(Andy Hertzfeld) I think the new 20Meg external drive from Apple will be
capable of doing that, since it interfaces through the IWM, which is
common to both Mac and the Apple ][. All it would take is a driver for
ProDos and probably some ProDos -> Mac conversion software that I think
they're already working on. One of the advantages of the recent
re-organization is that things like that should be much more likely to
happen.
(Tom Mackie) Andy, is coding for the Atari etc. similar enough so that it
(may) tend to expand the software base for developers?
(Andy Hertzfeld) No, it's really very different. It would be possible to
write a MacWorks for the Atari and then it would be easy, but that's not
an easy thing to do and I doubt if anyone will. GEM seems to have
about half the capability of the Mac ROMS.
(Brad Pettit) Are there any planned updates to MacPascal that will make it
easier to use the toolbox or that will permit more sizable applications.
(Andy Hertzfeld) If you mean the interactive Pascal from Think Technologies,
yes,
they are currently working on a "developer's version" that should
be quite practical for writing large applications. It will have the
option of generating native code, while retaining it's unique interactive
flavor. Last March they siad it would be ready in the fall, but
I haven't heard about it recently.
(Dennis/AltSysop) (There's supposed to be an update to the interactive
version "in time for the fall semester")
(Dennis/AltSysop) I guess that's it - OK by you, Andy?
(Andy Hertzfeld) OK, it was fun!
------------------------------
End of INFO-MAC Digest
**********************