rrizzo@bbncca.UUCP (06/23/84)
Here's a question a friend posed a few years ago: Does a dream exist only in the recollection of it? That is, does the mental event we call a dream actually unfold like a story with beginning, end & duration, or is it a more abstract mental occurrence that receives a mean- ingful form (becomes a "dream") only when we "remember" it (think about it when awake)? Is there strong evidence for dreams being the events they seem? If so, can such evidence be reinterpreted to support the "non- temporal" model without torturing the data or making the expla- nation too ad hoc? Ron Rizzo
simard@loral.UUCP (Ray Simard) (06/23/84)
There are several indications that dreams do play out along a time line.
Dream researchers have found that we all dream several times a night,
and the dreams tend to have distinct natures depending on when in the
sequence they occur.
What is interesting is that what seems to be happening is actually the
reverse of the possibility mentioned. When subjects were awakened and
asked to describe their dreams, the descriptions were generally bizarre
and metaphysical. The same subjects, when describing the same dream
later, recalled much of the events, but the descriptions had become
less outrageous. It seems that we create very unreal images in dreams,
and have trouble remembering those images in the light of day.
A further suggestion of dream occurrence is the REM activity (rapid
eye movements) which appear to be the eyes following the "action" of the
dream.
--
Ray Simard
Loral Instrumentation, San Diego
{ucbvax, ittvax!dcdwest}!sdcsvax!sdccsu3!loral!simardado@elsie.UUCP (06/25/84)
> Here's a question a friend posed a few years ago: > > Does a dream exist only in the recollection of it? If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, will tape recorders be invented? :-) -- ...decvax!allegra!umcp-cs!elsie!ado (301) 496-5688 (the DEC and VAX in decvax are Digital Equipment Corporation trademarks)
nessus@mit-eddie.UUCP (Doug Alan) (06/30/84)
() > From: rrizzo@bbncca.ARPA (Ron Rizzo) > Does a dream exist only in the recollection of it? That > is, does the mental event we call a dream actually unfold > like a story with beginning, end & duration, or is it > a more abstract mental occurrence that receives a mean- > ingful form (becomes a "dream") only when we "remember" > it (think about it when awake)? This theory certainly doesn't seem true for lucid dreams. Lucid dreams are dreams where you are aware and realize that you are dreaming and can effect the course of the dream to some extent. -- -Doug Alan mit-eddie!nessus Nessus@MIT-MC "What does 'I' mean"?
rs55611@ihuxk.UUCP (Robert E. Schleicher) (07/03/84)
Here's another question related to the issue of whether dreams occur in "real time", or whether some time compression/dilation occurs (or is perceived). As a child I had a recurring dream of falling down a bottomless pit, or off of a very high cliff, or out of a plane. (Usually as the "climax" of a dream involving running away from, or after something). During the dream it would feel as if I was falling for minutes. I'd then wake up at the "moment of impact" on the floor next to the bed. Now, my question: Did the entire falling part of the dream really occur in the second or so that I was actually falling out of bed, or did I just fall out of bed as a result of thrashing around while falling in my dream? I guess I'll never know, but it is interesting to speculate on the possible explanations. Bob Schleicher ihuxk!rs55611 AT&T Bell Laboratories, Naperville, Ill.
north@down.UUCP (07/04/84)
My sister told me recently that she had a dream that my mom was going around blowing up major American cities with nuclear weapons. My mom wanted my sister to help by leaving a shopping bag in a department store somewhere, but it bothered my sister's conscience so she wouldn't do it. I want to know if this dream was happening in real time. stephen c north
ntt@dciem.UUCP (Mark Brader) (07/04/84)
Bob Schleicher (ihuxk!rs55611 (!)) writes:
... During the dream it would feel as if I was falling for minutes.
I'd then wake up at the "moment of impact" on the floor next to the bed.
Now ... Did the entire falling part of the dream really occur in the
second or so that I was actually falling out of bed, or did I just fall
out of bed as a result of thrashing around while falling in my dream?
Interesting, because I think most people wake up IN bed. (No anecdotes
to the contrary please!) Anyway, here's a third possible explanation,
which I think is more likely: during the course of sleep your normal
movements take you to the edge of the bed. You then feel that you are
lying on the edge (after all, your touch sensors are still working),
and the connection with falling is made. The [falling part of the] dream
then begins, and ends with the actual impact.
A fourth possibility is that the impact does NOT wake you up, but rather
STARTS the [falling part of the] dream, eventually leading to the dreamed
impact which, since you perceive it, does wake you up.
Mark Braderlaura@utzoo.UUCP (Laura Creighton) (07/06/84)
More anecdotal evidence... I have often woken up in mid air just before I hit the ground. Now for some harder stuff: If you can really convince me that I am endangered I no longer think in real time. I must be thinking awfully fast, thought he perception I have is that everything else is moving very slowly. I have often wondered if this was common or not, and for a long while believed that it was uncommon. But I mentioned this to somebody and he claimed that it was reasonably well documented. I haven't gone looking for the documentation yet. But if this is the case then there is good reason to assume that it is at least possible to feel that you are falling for minutes as you fall out of bed. Laura Creighton utzoo!laura
seifert@ihuxl.UUCP (D.A. Seifert) (07/07/84)
> Now for some harder stuff: If you can really convince me that I am > endangered I no longer think in real time. I must be thinking awfully > fast, thought he perception I have is that everything else is moving > very slowly. I have often wondered if this was common or not, and > for a long while believed that it was uncommon. But I mentioned this > to somebody and he claimed that it was reasonably well documented. > I haven't gone looking for the documentation yet. > > Laura Creighton > utzoo!laura Yeah, to push the brain-computer analogy, it's as if we have a variable clock rate. Boredom slows it down, interest speeds it up. (and danger is very interesting!) I've noticed this effect while sliding off corners 3 and 5 at Blackhawk. (racetrack) Sure take a l o n g time to come to a stop! -- _____ /_____\ {the cute closing-line generator has /_______\ the day off, sorry.} |___| Snoopy ____|___|_____ ihnp4!ihuxl!seifert
mmt@dciem.UUCP (Martin Taylor) (07/08/84)
***************
Yeah, to push the brain-computer analogy, it's as if we have a
variable clock rate. Boredom slows it down, interest speeds it
up. (and danger is very interesting!)
I've noticed this effect while sliding off corners 3 and 5 at
Blackhawk. (racetrack) Sure take a l o n g time to come to a stop!
____|___|_____ ihnp4!ihuxl!seifert
***************
I'll confirm that ... One night I was knocked off my bike by a car
that didn't stop at a stop sign. As I was going through the air, I
was considering whether there was oncoming traffic in the left lanes
or a following car, where to try to roll to avoid the car that hit me,
and all sorts of practical matters of that kind. I even had time to
put the decisions into effect -- about 30 minutes subjective time, I'd
say.
(PS Neither the bike nor my body suffered more than surface scrapes,
but I take more notice of cars coming to stop signs, now.)
--
Martin Taylor
{allegra,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,floyd,ubc-vision}!utzoo!dciem!mmtmark@cbosgd.UUCP (Mark Horton) (07/09/84)
This is consistent with my own observations - I often have really strange dreams, but forget them by the time I wake up. The only way I can remember a dream is to wake up during the dream and then make a concious effort to remember the highlights. Usually I've lost most of them anyway. What I've always wondered about is, do people dream in real time? I gather that a typical dream lasts only a few minutes. Yet it seems to take forever. Is there some sort of time compression going on, or is it just the bizarreness of the dream making it seem like a long time?
rjb@akgua.UUCP (R.J. Brown [Bob]) (07/09/84)
Hey Snoopy,
You've got something there with the variable clock rate
in the human brain. I've seen this effect reported by
race car drivers, people involved in car wrecks, and other
high intensity experiences. I had the experience myself
one time while playing tennis when I gracelessly tripped
over my own feet as I was approaching warp speed. Immediately,
motion seemed to slow down as I possessed intense concentration
on my body movements...O.K. now toss the racquet to your right
..very good.. now tuck your head to the left and roll on your
shoulder...
It was classical slow motion photography and the only explanation
I can give is the intense nature of the concentration.
I actually was able to "think" about these items and execute
them as I fell. Guess what !? No injury and no soreness or
"day after" evidence of any rips, tears, or pulls.
Bob Brown {...ihnp4!akgua!rjb}
AT&T Technologies, Inc.............. Norcross, Ga
(404) 447-3784 ... Cornet 583-3784piety@hplabs.UUCP (Bob Piety) (07/09/84)
A couple of times I've been heading toward what I thought was a sure automobile accident. All of a sudden, everything appeared to be happening in slow-motion and I had much more time to think of an evasive course of action. This must be because the mind is working much faster (5-10x) than normal. For example, I was going about 35MPH and suddenly realized The car 50 ft or so in front of me was stopped. I hit the brakes and started to skid. In less than half a second, I remember thinking: "OH Shit! What do I do now?....Lets see, when skidding, pump the brakes." I managed to pump the brakes only once but stopped 6" behind the car. The point is that I thought out that mental dialog in an extremely short time during which everything seemed to be happening in slow motion. Conclusion: Thinking process greatly speeded up. Geez, too bad I couldn't make it work that fast all the time..... Bob
agust@spuxll.UUCP (Agust K Gudmundsson) (07/11/84)
I seem to remember (from psych 101) that the average dream only lasted between 1-5 seconds. The dreamer would often think that he/she had been dreaming for several minutes when awakened. Maybe a reason for this is normally the brain is waiting for the peripherals to catch up to it. As when you cant write(type) fast enough to keep up with your thoughs. The mind in dream state is also concentrating only on the dream not on interpriting any of the info from the sensory organs. This seems could be compared to a processor running without having to handle any peripherals pure proccess and no I/O. This may also be what happens when it seems that the mind is working faster (like before an accident ) maybe the mind suddenly becomes a devoted processor ignoring any of the distractions like sound or temp. or pain. This would free the mind to concentrate on the problem at hand only, least for a short time. O well back to sleep... I mean work. Icelandic Cowboy Agust K. G. spuxa!agust
laura@utzoo.UUCP (Laura Creighton) (07/14/84)
Sorry to knock a hole in The Icelandic Cowboy's theory, but I can tell you that I, at any rate, have experienced the time slowing as well as getting all of the pain. Laura Creighton utzoo!laura
andrew@garfield.UUCP (Andrew Draskoy) (07/20/84)
[] > From: peterr@utcsrgv.UUCP (Peter Rowley) > > I have some anecdotal evidence for time dilation... I had a fairly > involved dream, which I only remember snatches of, which ended in a > burglar alarm sounding. The dream seemed to last several minutes, > ending with the "burglar alarm" which woke me up. The burglar alarm > turned out to be a telephone bell that had been ringing for much > less than the (apparent) several minutes of my dream. > > Now, I could have started with a perfectly ordinary dream into which > the phone intruded (as a burglar alarm) or the dream could have been > initiated in response to the phone. Hard to tell, though from what > I remember of the dream, it made sense for the burglar alarm to be there. > > p. rowley, U. Toronto There is one more, albeit stranger, possibility: Perhaps the ringing of the phone was anticipated, and the burglar alarm stuck in by the sub-conscious so that the sound would fit in. The sounds outragous, I know, but I have a reason for suggesting it. The dream the I recall most vividly is one that I had many years ago. In it, I remember "seeing" someone walking up to the door of my house and press the doorbell. At the exact moment that they pressed it, someone in reality pressed the bell. Now, I remember that you generally could not hear people outside, so I don't think I heard them approach the door. This kind of forseeing the near future and having the dream fit it has happened to me several times since then. Has anyone else had this sort of experience? Andrew Draskoy {akgua, allegra, ihnp4, utcsrgv}!garfield!andrew
sunny@sun.uucp (Sunny Kirsten) (07/23/84)
Greetings:
That's precognition, a form of ESP (alias PSI).
I know two different people who have experienced the waking form.
It is generally acknowledged that conventional mental activity, or
consciousness, tends to block PSI phenomena, so it's not suprising to find that
dream states leave one more susceptible to PSI phenomena.
I personally have experienced a sleeping form of this, which woke me,
and only after a couple minutes of being awake, did the sender of the ESP
message "ring" me on the phone. Thus for me, it was not precognition, but
direct real time ESP as a result of the other persons wishing to contact me,
and following up that thought with a phone call.
It is generally acknowledged in the PSI field that MOST earthlings
are simply poor at PSI phenomena, not incapable of it.
May the force be with you...
{ucbvax|decvax|ihnp4}!sun!sunny(Sunny Kirsten of Sun Microsystems)