ph@wucec2.UUCP (07/06/86)
A month or so ago, I wrote: >>You'd think Sunny and Tantric Astrology PSI people were poisoning wells and >>sacrificing beautiful maidens. Why the high emotion? > > That is, in fact, an interesting question. Now, I believe > with a high degree of surety that Sunny & friends are deluding > themselves; on the other hand, I don't see that they are making > themselves or anyone else unhappy with what they do. Why, then, > should I care? Yet I find that the thought of people believing > that for which they have no good reason to believe saddening. > Perhaps I fear that if someone is capable of so acritically > accepting an innocuous belief, they might be equally capable of > accepting a dangerous one (read: one leading to actions causing > hurt to others). I'm not sure. So in article <878@hoptoad.uucp> sunny@hoptoad.uucp (Sunny Kirsten) writes 200+ lines in response. I think I'm flattered. >I've tried to make this clear, a number of times, yet it keeps getting lost >in the paranoid defenses of the religion of rational science... >I too was raised as a rational scientist, and have an engineering degree >to prove that I too was indoctrinated with a great deal of scientific >"prove it to me" skepticism. I am sad to say that many professional scientists have been taken in by supposed psychics who were later exposed as frauds. Some of them are very embarassed now. Others refuse to admit that they are wrong. > . . . going back to an analogy I often use, if we stepped >backwards in time to predate the invention of the geiger counter, the absence >of an instrument to measure atomic radiation (absence of evidence) would not >negate the existance of atomic radiation (imply absence of existance). Likewise >the absence of evidence (in your laboratory or your experience) and the absence >of an instrument to measure psychic energy, does not imply that psychic energy >does not exist. True (though--a nitpick--photographic plates were darkened by pitchblende long before the geiger counter was invented)--but neither does that fact impel us to believe that psychic energy _does_ exist. If and when you supply the appropriate evidence, I will believe in it, but until then I won't--as I said before. >The bottom line is, that each of us was born with an instrument to measure >psychic energy, but few of us accidentally stumble upon how to use it, or are >trained in the normal course of childhood in how to develop our psychic "muscles". If psychic ability were universally inherent, as you say, since its benefits clearly are enormous (as you also say, later on) psychic phenomena should be prevalent in most world cultures. I doubt that you can give an explanation for why it is not which is convincing and not _ad hoc_. > Maybe I am deluding myself... into >believing that I'm healing myself and becoming healthier and happier, more >self assured, more secure, more integrated, more whole. Why not? I know of many people who are quite happy because of their faith in one God or another (or several); I happen to think they are deluding themselves too. It is exactly this that depresses me: that so many people find it necessary to BELIEVE! in something in order to be happy. I certainly wouldn't begrudge anyone happiness--but why must it be at the cost of skepticism and reason? >Throw away your Bible. Ignore everything I've told you. (-: Yes, I plan to. :-) >[Etc. . . . ] >Question authority. And recognize that the people closest to you are the ones most >likely to have a vested interest in your NOT finding your truth. For when you do, >you will be a lot more difficult for them to control in serving their own free will. (-: Who's paranoid again? Oh, I am, of course. Silly me, I forgot for a moment. :-) >Oh, yes... surely this is all a delusion on my part. I think I've found out how to make >my life work, and the secrets of greater wisdom, spirituality, and power. And what >do I do with it? I tell you my answers are likely not right for you, and that you >must follow your own path. . . . > I don't care WHAT you do. Ignore me. I don't care! Of course not--that's why you wrote two hundred lines about it. Please note that I am not asking you to accept any particular beliefs in place of your present ones either; I just wish you were more careful about what you _do_ accept. The parts of Sunny's article I have edited out are mostly descriptions of the details of her psychic activities and abilities, not very informative to those unenlightened such as myself. Most of them I consider non-supernatural results of the workings of the human mind (which really does work in some astonishing ways, if not necessarily those that Sunny would have us believe). In sum, all I can say is: Sunny, if you're that sure, gather up a passel of your friends and go to Randi. Some of the effects you mention can definitely be verified experimentally. You can make a tidy little sum of money, Topher Cooper and his colleagues will be ecstatic at having results that don't have to be extracted statistically from a sea of data, and you can shut me and the other skeptics up forever. I intend to post no more articles on this subject. Mail.psi is up and running now, I believe, and that is where any further discussion should go. Please. --pH /* * "There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is named Iluvatar; and * he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring * of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was * made. And he spoke to them, propounding to them themes of * music; and they sang before him, and he was glad. . . . " */
ph@wucec2.UUCP (07/06/86)
In article <1785@wucec2.UUCP> I write: > If psychic ability were universally inherent, as you say, > since its benefits clearly are enormous (as you also say, later > on) psychic phenomena should be prevalent in most world ^^^^^^^^^ > cultures. I doubt that you can give an explanation for why it ^^ > is not which is convincing and not _ad hoc_. ^^ Hoist on my own petard! (See net.misc.) Try instead < I doubt that you can give an explanation for why they < are not which is convincing and not _ad hoc_. --pH (-: - "I are a enginere." :-)
dobro@ulowell.UUCP (Gryphon) (07/23/86)
Phone : (617) 937-0551
Usenet: ...!{wanginst,masscomp}!ulowell!dobro
Flame-To: /dev/null/...
Reply-To: dobro@ulowell.UUCP (Gryphon)
USMail: P.O.Box 8524, Lowell, Ma. 01853
These comments are in reply to posting #641.
You try and figure out who said what:
>> Now, I beleive with a high degree of surety that Sunny & friends
>> are deluding themselves; ...
>> I find that the thought of people believing that for which they
>> have no good reason to believe saddening.
Aaargh! This is an idea that I find extremely annoying/angering.
That someone else can tell you that what you beleive through
your own senses is less valid than what they perceive through theirs.
If I see something and you don't, how can you tell me that I'm the one
seeing things wrong? Or, how could I tell you?
Each person perceptions is effectively an oppinion. An opinion CANNOT
be wrong. It is simply that: what someone thinks or beleives.
> I am sad to say that many professional scientists have been taken
> in by supposed psychics who were later exposed as frauds.
I agree. However, many patients were also treated by doctor who
were later exposed to be frauds. SO, the REAL doctors (read: legit)
set up a group to police those calling themselves 'doctors' and to
prevent this kind of fraudulent practice. The fact that many were
frauds, DOES NOT IMPLY that there were no actual doctors ou there.
I hope I do not need to clarify this analogy any further...
> If and when you supply appropriate evidence, I will beleive
> in it [psychic energy], but until then I won't [beleive]
I (and hopefully others) are not trying to tell you that YOU MUST
beleive us. We are trying to say that you shouldn't say what
WE believe is invalid. We say there is psi energy, prove to us
there isn't and we will stop beleiving, until then we will beleive...
> If psychic ability were universally inherent, as you say, since
> its benefits are enourmanous (...), psychic phenomena should be
> prevalent in most world cultures.
Well, the talent of "intelligence", "patience", "politeness" and
other things are also of enormous benefits. That doesn't mean
to say that they exist in great quantities.
Sorry. But the analogy still holds...
> Most of them [psychic activities & abilites] I consider
> non-supernatural results of the workings of the human mind
> (which does work in some astonishing ways, if not necessarily
> those that she would have us beleive)
We (those with psi abilites AS WELL AS those who support them)
never claim (I speak for myself, some others) the abilites to
be supernatural. That word implies 'beyond nature' or more cearly
'beyond that which can occur within the Laws'
What we do claim is that these abilites are skills (developed)
or talents (born with) that are Para-normal.
That word implies 'beside normal' or more clearly 'other than
that which can be explained by normal means', which is
a heck of a lot less pretentious.
> In sum, all I can say is: If you're that sure [speaking to psi's],
> gather up the passel of your friends and go to Randi.
> Some of the effects you mention can definately be verified.
This is another old, old point. A composer is recognized as being
able to come up with (depending upon skill) magnificent works.
But sit him down on a random day and put start recording, and
see how well he does. His ability is documented! But that doesn't
mean it can be put on the spot. To quote, he cannot simply say
"Today, I will be brilliant". That doesn't imply that he can't.
---
At this point I wish to apologize to the net.world for this whole
discourse. I am simply sick and tired of the common attitude that
exists.
However, at this point MOD.PSI exists and is running, so hopefully
this innane finger-pointing will come to an end.
Those carzies of us who are willing to accept other ideas
will go off to our own little group.
'Nough said.
Gryphon
-------------------------------
Disclaimer: I am simply a figment of my immagination,
and cannot therefore have and opinion.
"Far beyond human ability to classify, or comprehend..."