info-mac@utcsrgv.UUCP (info-mac) (07/01/84)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 84 10:03:04 PDT From: "Theodore N. Vail" <uw-beaver!vail@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA> To: info-mac@sumex-aim.arpa Subject: legal matters Recently a note was sent over this list advising readers that a major corporation might consider a program and data which were distributed over this list as licensed, and the note went on to give legal advice concerning the use of this material. It should be noted that in the state of California, where the message originated, as well as in the other 49 states, giving legal advice without being a member of the bar is illegal. In any case, it is doubtful that the advice given was correct -- more than likely the case proposed by the author of the note would be laughed out of court, though the judge might enjoy playing the game involved. As those of us who have to deal with legal matters in a serious fashion have learned, the law is not simple, does not follow the paradigms that computer programmers are accustomed to, and, especially in the case of computer software and trade secrets, is not well-defined nor well-understood. In particular, we have learned (in my own case to my great benefit) that statements made by large corporations (in particular in "contracts" that they write and give to their customers) claiming that they have certain rights, restricting their own liability, and restricting the use or sale of products, etc., are often worthless. Indeed, there are recent (so called "bad faith") cases where corpo- rations have lost multi-million dollar suits in an attempt to enforce these claims when they were contrary to law. I would recommend that any reader who is concerned about his legal rights or liabilities contact his local lawyer. I would also hope that no further "legal" advice will distributed over lists such as this. vail
info-mac@utcsrgv.UUCP (info-mac) (07/01/84)
Date: Sat, 30-Jun-84 17:04:11 PDT From: Lauren Weinstein <uw-beaver!vortex!lauren@RAND-UNIX.ARPA> Subject: Re: legal matters To: vail@UCLA-LOCUS Cc: info-mac@SUMEX In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 30 Jun 84 10:03:04 PDT Your lack of understanding of the law, including the difference between giving professional legal advice and expressing a personal opinion, is laughable. I only hope that someday you have some software that you're trying to sell and protect, and that someone posts your sources to some networks without your permission. We'll see who'll be laughing then. AT&T used trade secret agreements as the only reasonable manner to protect their work and still be able to release sources so that people could do the work they wanted to do with those systems. Those who try to take "advantage" of such licensing are simply vindicating the increasing attitude that no software should EVER be provided with source, regardless of its size, complexity, or cost. It will be a sad day when this attitude comes to totally dominate all aspects of our industry -- but this seems likely so long as people refuse to respect the idea rights and property rights of others. Feel free to argue this point with me in more detail in private mail. --Lauren--
info-mac@utcsrgv.UUCP (info-mac) (07/02/84)
Date: Mon 2 Jul 84 05:01:12-EDT From: uw-beaver!RMS%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: Legal matters To: info-mac@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA How strange to find myself agreeing with Lauren--but I too hope that, if you ever try to sell and protect software, you find that it has been posted to networks without your permission. That's the reward that software protection deserves. But I hope even more that you will choose to share the software, as a responsible member of society does. It is inevitable that amoral, greedy organizations and individuals will discover new ways to refuse others their cooperation, so as to keep others artificially dependent on them and thereby "earn" more money. As this happens, the alternative I present will look more and more attractive. I will provide users with programs whose sources they are welcome to post, the more networks the merrier. My free 68000 C compiler is coming in a few weeks. It won't fit in a mac, but could probably run on a lisa somehow. -------
info-mac@utcsrgv.UUCP (info-mac) (07/04/84)
Date: 3 July 1984 03:34-EDT From: Jerry E. Pournelle <uw-beaver!POURNE@MIT-MC> Subject: legal matters To: vail@UCLA-LOCUS Cc: info-mac@SUMEX-AIM In-Reply-To: Msg of Sat 30 Jun 84 11:04:33 PDT from Theodore N. Vail <vail at UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA> 1. "Giving legal advice" is "illegal" if you are not a lawyer? I can understand that taking money for doing that can be prohibited, but how do you draft a law that makes it a crime to speak one's mind? I understand that lawyers have nothing but contempt for the First Ammendment (unless they can enrich themselves through it) but it does still exist. 2. I take it you wil sue if anyone else on this list "gives legal advice"? Free advice may often be worth less than you paid for it; but then, so is much of the "professional" legal advice, the difference being that one paid more for that...
info-mac@utcsrgv.UUCP (info-mac) (07/04/84)
Date: 3 July 1984 03:34-EDT From: Jerry E. Pournelle <uw-beaver!POURNE@MIT-MC> Subject: legal matters To: vail@UCLA-LOCUS Cc: info-mac@SUMEX-AIM In-Reply-To: Msg of Sat 30 Jun 84 10:03:04 PDT from Theodore N. Vail <vail at UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA> why did we get three copies of this? But why does it not surprise me?
info-mac@utcsrgv.UUCP (info-mac) (07/04/84)
Date: 3 July 1984 03:21-EDT From: Jerry E. Pournelle <uw-beaver!POURNE@MIT-MC> Subject: Legal matters To: RMS@MIT-OZ Cc: info-mac@SUMEX-AIM In-Reply-To: Msg of Mon 2 Jul 84 05:01:12-EDT from RMS%MIT-OZ at MIT-MC.ARPA We have a Lisa, and it would be fun to test yur neew C compiler (I have a couple of mad C enthusiasts available). Pity it won't run on a Mac. MacForth works but it Has Bugs, and crashes are frequent. A C compiler would be a blessing...