info-mac@utcsrgv.UUCP (info-mac) (07/04/84)
Date: 03 Jul 84 1329 PDT From: Peter Blicher <uw-beaver!PB@SU-AI.ARPA> Subject: copy protection To: pourne@MIT-MC.ARPA, info-mac@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA PB - Well, if you really want a solution, here's one. First of all, things will eventually get worse as everything becomes available in machine-readable form--newspapers, magazines, books, etc. If you can see it on a screen, you can copy it, so copying can only be impeded, not prevented, unless the hardware contains non-tamperable RSA boxes. Here's the reasoning for another solution. As long as the user has to pay a significant fee for use, there will be incentive for piracy. Therefore use should be free. As long as obtaining stuff from the source is more convenient than copying, there will be disincentive for piracy. Therefore everything should be readily obtainable. How does the originator get paid? By the Government, of course. More exactly, some central organization provides the data, notes how many copies have been sent out, and reimburses at some legislated rate (per word, per work, or whatever). Where does the money come from? Taxation, either general (like paying for the current copyright office, library of congress, roads for the common good, etc.) or on the reproduction equipment. To keep authors from ordering infinite copies to get extra royalties, the system has to allow only 1 copy per customer (in the appropriate sense--organizations would get more).
info-mac@utcsrgv.UUCP (info-mac) (07/04/84)
Date: Tue 3 Jul 84 18:08:26-PDT From: Tony Siegman <uw-beaver!SIEGMAN@SU-SIERRA.ARPA> Subject: Copy Protection (Minor Flame) To: info-mac@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA [I'll rush this into print before Ed Patterman gets back and filters all this minor-league flaming out of info-mac]. AES -- I'm appalled and rather surprised to read (per J. Pournelle) that BIG companies frequently rip off software, including even relatively low-priced stuff. It's not that I think big companies are more moral than the rest of us; it's just that they usually seem to at least follow a formal appearance of playing by the rules, and then accomplishing any dirty deeds either by bending the rules, slipping through loopholes, or perverting the rulemakers themselves (i.e., making lots of big contributions to legislators and politicians). Also, it would seem almost easier for them to use their buying power and negotiate a bulk price with the vendor for whatever software they need. Maybe some of this piracy is done by the troops at lower levels, more or less without official knowledge, and really isn't company policy. Anyway, one counterweapon against the big guys might be just simply publicity, and the resulting embarrassment. There must be lots of ways the names and unsocial acts of such companies could be put out on bboards and nets, without running too much danger of getting a lawsuit in return. -------
info-mac@utcsrgv.UUCP (info-mac) (07/04/84)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 84 02:03 PDT From: uw-beaver!Gloger.es@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: copy protection In-Reply-To: "PB@SU-AI.ARPA's message of 03 Jul 84 13:29 PDT" To: Peter Blicher <PB@SU-AI.ARPA> Cc: pourne@MIT-MC.ARPA, info-mac@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA Hey, that's a really great idea, having the government pay for everything and provide it free to us users! As long as it's free, I would like one of everything, of course, and so would almost everybody else I know, but that's no problem, the government will be paying for it anyway. Actually, I think I can improve on your solution, and save the government the chore of keeping track of how much to pay each source. Just have the government pay $1000 per day to every person and be done with it.
info-mac@utcsrgv.UUCP (info-mac) (07/05/84)
Date: 4 Jul 84 12:07 EDT From: Richard Reich <uw-beaver!REICH@NYU-ACF1.ARPA> To: SIEGMAN@SU-SIERRA.ARPA, INFO-MAC@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA Subject: RE: Copy Protection (Minor Flame) In-Reply-To: <8407040120.AA05734@NYU.ARPA> ; Message of 3-JUL-1984 21:22 from Tony Siegman <SIEGMAN@SU-SIERRA.ARPA> PLEASE -- knock it off! Dad's gone, guys, lets play with the... THANKS! -r (PS- There are numerous lists DESIGNED for bullshit. Please have fun there. It makes it much easier for non-participants to avoid stepping in it.) -------
info-mac@utcsrgv.UUCP (info-mac) (07/06/84)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 84 10:13:08 PDT From: Bob English <uw-beaver!lcc.bob@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA> To: Peter Blicher <PB@SU-AI.ARPA> Cc: info-mac@SUMEX-AIM Subject: copy protection In-Reply-To: Your message of 03 Jul 84 1329 PDT This is similar to the arrangement worked out between ASCAP and colleges regarding performance of music at athletic events. The colleges play a single license fee to ASCAP for the rights to all ASCAP music. ASCAP then distributes the royalties based on play statistics, TV time, etc. It doesn't involve the government. --bob--
info-mac@utcsrgv.UUCP (info-mac) (07/06/84)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 84 10:57 PDT From: uw-beaver!Bosseler.ES@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: copy protection In-Reply-To: "Gloger's message of Wed, 4 Jul 84 02:03 PDT" To: Gloger.ES@XEROX.ARPA Cc: Peter Blicher <PB@SU-AI.ARPA>, pourne@MIT-MC.ARPA, info-mac@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA Paul I think you missed the main point. Not everyone would be QUALIFIED to receive the free software - just registered software developers who have paid a small fee to the "central organization" AND passed their entrance requirements (just like defense contractors). And of course the head of that gov't department would be an intelligent, "career" bureaucrat just like the ones managing public transportation, military procurement, and the IRS. The neat part about all this is that we would all get paid the same no matter what the worth as long as the software was acceptable by the bureaucrat. And the public would pay and pay whether they wanted the stuff or not - isn't that a novel idea? After all, who is better qualified to purchase and distribute software than the gov't? Tom
info-mac@utcsrgv.UUCP (info-mac) (07/07/84)
Date: 7 July 1984 04:21-EDT From: Jerry E. Pournelle <uw-beaver!POURNE@MIT-MC> Subject: Copy Protection (Minor Flame) To: SIEGMAN@SU-SIERRA Cc: info-mac@SUMEX-AIM In-Reply-To: Msg of Tue 3 Jul 84 18:08:26-PDT from Tony Siegman <SIEGMAN at SU-SIERRA.ARPA> (1) recall, I was expressing the view of Borland International (and in deed of Peter Winer of Think Tank) that big outfits copy software and distribute it internally. I have no evidence other than that JPL does NOT do that. (2) The publicity counterweapon seems ideal, provided that one has real evidence of the practice; truth is a good defense at libel actions. I'd rather see lots of publicity about ripoff outfits than see copy protection..
info-mac@utcsrgv.UUCP (info-mac) (07/08/84)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 84 00:41:24 edt From: uw-beaver!allegra!cbosgd!mark (Mark Horton) To: uw-beaver!info-mac Subject: Re: Copy Protection (Minor Flame) References: <1134@uw-beaver> Working for a large corporation, perhaps I can shed a little light on the reasons for copying. (No, I haven't done any such illegal copying, nor do I know anyone here who has. But I've been tempted a few times, and I can't say I never will.) Big organizations have big bureaucracies to deal with. Chances are very good that these bureaucracies, called "purchasing", "receiving", and the like, are unionized. This means they effectively report to nobody - they sure don't report to anybody who has anything to do with the people we technical types report to. They are also very secure in their jobs (due to the union) and tend to get rotated around to ensure that a new purchasing person is always being broken in. They seldom have any incentive to make me happy. (I'll have to tell you about our clerk sometime - plays a mean game of rogue and gets xerox copies back to us in about a week on the average.) If I want a copy of the Framus C compiler, which costs $500, to get it legally here's what I have to do. First I have to talk to my supervisor and orally get him/her to agree that I should buy it. Then I fill out a Xerox copy of a purchase order, listing what I want, what it costs, a recommended supplier, what account to charge it to, and who I am. (I'm luck that it's under $5000, if it weren't I'd have to either put it out for bids (!) or write a letter explaining why I'm not putting it out for bids.) I take this form to the person who types up purchase orders. (I can't type it up myself because this person has to decide what people have to sign it, and assign it a temporary PO number.) The form sits in this person's inbox for about a week until the person gets around to typing it up. They type it onto an official PO form and route it to a half dozen or so people for signatures. It's dropped into the company mail to go to the first person (no, I can't wait and pick it up, unless I want to wait a week.) The first 3 or 4 people are all here in the building, so if it doesn't get lost on someone's desk, within another week it may have most of the signatures. Then it goes via company mail to the official purchasing organization in New Jersey. They sign it, assign it a real PO number, and phone it in. If I'm not real anxious for it, they'll drop it in the mail a few days later, and the supplier will ship it after their own bureacracy is placated (often there are a few passes through the mails to get a license signed.) Then they ship it. It gets shipped UPS, and appears on our loading dock a few days later. If I'm lucky, the person on the loading dock won't lose it or steal it (the unionized employees will sign for anything, but this does not mean they take responsibility for it - if it disappears that's our loss. You'd be amazed at the things that have been stolen.) A few days later, it suddenly shows up on my desk. Total elapsed time: one month minimum. Or I could walk down the hall to my friend and borrow his disk for 5 minutes.