[net.music.classical] Goetterdaemmerung: bad pressing?

chabot@miles.DEC (High Anxiety Workstations) (06/30/85)

Can anyone report any luck with ANY copies of the Solti / Vienna Philharmonic
performance of _Goetterdaemmerung_?!  Based on my experiences with the London
digital re-mastering, I'd advise anyone: "Don't!".  There's this really awful
glitchiness on the second side (near the end), in Act I Scene 1, in Hagen's
next-to-next-to-last spiel, "...so ruestiger Kraft / in des Ruders Schwung
###/ ### r#u#e#h#m#t # s#i#c#h # n#u#r # der, / ...".  Groaty to the extreme,
it sounds like a folded or badly spliced tape; this is not a scratch on my
platter.

And, no, I'm not just a perfectionist frothing--this glitch has twice startled
me out of a light doze: this is the second copy I've tried.  I don't own any
previous releases of this performance--can anybody out there who has one
comment on whether this glitch exists more globally?  Or does anyone have it
on CD?  The rest of the set has no such problems, and I'm very fond of this
outstanding performance, but, yucko, I'm not going to keep this this this... 
I haven't gotten any farther yet, either time.

Information appreciated.  Also advice.  The Harvard Coop is going to get tired
of me bringing back a copy every week, I imagine, and if all the pressings are
this bad, what's the point.  Perhaps writing directly to London will have some
desired effect (and if anyone cares else, send me mail and I'll pass on what I
find out). 

Even my battered Murray Hill Furtwaengler doesn't have anything this bad on it!
(-: No, honest: this is only my second set.  Or, well, 2 1/4 set. :-)

So, in summary, London digital re-mastering edition of the Solti / Vienna
Philharmonic _Goetterdaemmerung_: disgusting.

L S Chabot   ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot  chabot@amber.dec@decwrl.arpa

palmer@Shasta.ARPA (07/01/85)

> Can anyone report any luck with ANY copies of the Solti / Vienna Philharmonic
> performance of _Goetterdaemmerung_?!  Based on my experiences with the London
> digital re-mastering, I'd advise anyone: "Don't!".  There's this really awful
> glitchiness on the second side (near the end), in Act I Scene 1, in Hagen's
> next-to-next-to-last spiel, "...so ruestiger Kraft / in des Ruders Schwung
> ###/ ### r#u#e#h#m#t # s#i#c#h # n#u#r # der, / ...".  Groaty to the extreme,
> it sounds like a folded or badly spliced tape; this is not a scratch on my
> platter.
> 

Well, I pulled out my compact disc copy, cued to the appropriate spot, and 
sure enough the described glitch is there.  An interesting question is 
whether the glitch occurs on earlier pressings; I've never heard one of
them.  

I have to disagree about the negative recommendation on the recording 
because of this one glitch.  I have a reasonably good front-end (Linn Sondek) 
but would be suffering much more from the way an LP set would sound
after the many, many playings I've enjoyed than from this one glitch.
It isn't quite the same as a live performance, but then again I can listen
to it any time I like, without having to stand for 6 hours, and without
having people rustling programs, sneezing, etc. around me.  You win some,
you lose some.

On a slightly related note, John Culshaw's book "Ring Resounding" is
a fascinating tale of the entire "Ring" recording project.  Well worth
digging out of the local library.

				Bill Palmer
				whp4@su-sierra.arpa

hal@cornell.UUCP (Hal Perkins) (07/03/85)

>> Can anyone report any luck with ANY copies of the Solti / Vienna Philharmonic
>> performance of _Goetterdaemmerung_?!  Based on my experiences with the London
>> digital re-mastering, I'd advise anyone: "Don't!".  There's this really awful
>> glitchiness on the second side (near the end), in Act I Scene 1, in Hagen's
>> next-to-next-to-last spiel, "...so ruestiger Kraft / in des Ruders Schwung
>> ###/ ### r#u#e#h#m#t # s#i#c#h # n#u#r # der, / ...".  Groaty to the extreme,
>> it sounds like a folded or badly spliced tape; this is not a scratch on my
>> platter.
>> 
>
>Well, I pulled out my compact disc copy, cued to the appropriate spot, and 
>sure enough the described glitch is there.  An interesting question is 
>whether the glitch occurs on earlier pressings; I've never heard one of
>them.  

Last night I listened to my copy of the record, which is about 10 years
old and is probably the original version.  The "...so ruestiger Kraft..."
passage is just fine, but on my records it's in the middle of side 3!
It sounds like London changed the side breaks and put more music per
side.  My set has 12 sides (6 disks) with about 20-25 min. per side.
How many disks are there in the new version?

In any case, if both the new records and the CD version have a glitch in
the same place, it would seem that there is a botch on the new master from
which both were made, and it won't do much good to return either to the
store hoping for a better copy.  It would probably be worth writing to
London/Decca just to see what their reaction is.

>On a slightly related note, John Culshaw's book "Ring Resounding" is
>a fascinating tale of the entire "Ring" recording project.  Well worth
>digging out of the local library.

Back in the mid 70s, at least, London used to sell the entire Ring in a
big box for just over $100 (of course those were real dollars, not the
play money we use now).  And, as an added bonus, the set included Culshaw's
book and two others.  I don't know if they do it now.  My mistake was I
didn't think I'd want the entire Ring, so I didn't buy the boxed set --
I just got one at first.  But I got hooked and within a few months I had
all 4 -- without the books, since I didn't buy it all at once.  sigh.

Hal Perkins                         UUCP: {decvax|vax135|...}!cornell!hal
Cornell Computer Science            ARPA: hal@cornell  BITNET: hal@crnlcs

greg@olivee.UUCP (Greg Paley) (07/03/85)

I hadn't noticed the glitch mentioned when I was listening to the
CD set.  I have a Telefunken LP pressing, which is excellent and
pre-dates both the DMM reissue and the "Digitally Remastered" issue.

I haven't had a chance to go back and find this spot on my LP's,
but I have an idea with regard to what might be the cause of the
problem on the digitally remastered (LP and CD) copies.  On my
Telefunken copies there are a number of clearly audible splices.
They are easily detectable because they often blunt the attack on
a chord, and there is a definite shift in the acoustic perspective.
Considering the care that went into this project, I suspect that
the engineers at the time (1964) did not envision home equipment
with the kind of detail and ambience resolution that would make these
things so clearly audible.

In any case, these same splices were much less noticeable on the
CD, which means that, in the course of remastering, somebody went
back and re-edited the masters so as to clean these up.  My guess
would be that, in the course of doing this and, perhaps, trying
to "correct" a splice at the point in Act I mentioned, the result
ended up being a more audible glitch than was on the original.

Incidentally, good as the recording is, it can't compare in impact
to a decent live, staged performance.  This was reinforced in my
own mind by seeing the S.F. Ring recently - there is a particular
catharsis to be experienced in the theater that records are unable
to supply.  Furthermore, anyone who saw Nilsson performing Brunnhilde
live in the late 60's/early 70's will attest that the recording doesn't
begin to suggest the power and intensity of her interpretation, or
even the overwhelming cut and voluminous outpouring of the actual
sound of her voice, particularly in the top register.  She's the
only Brunnhilde I've heard who tended to go slightly sharp on the
top notes at the end of the Immolation Scene, and her oath on the
spear in Act 2 was, in the theater, about the loudest thing I've
ever heard.

Those who enjoy Culshaw's "Ring Resounding" book will also enjoy his
much later "Putting the Record Straight" - incomplete due to his 
sudden death from viral hepatitis.  At the time of his writing the
later book, the fact that he was no longer under a fixed contract to
any one firm allowed him to be much freer in speaking out and naming
names that he had been in the "Ring Resounding" book.

	- Greg Paley