janzen@pipa.DEC (Thomas E. J. LMO4/B5 279-5421 ECL Test) (06/24/85)
Charles Ives wrote many fine works. The best work is his First Sonata, which is the source book of riffs for modern Jazz pianists. The Unanswered Question is very good, and is a companion piece to Central Park in the Dark. Incidentally, I once saw a copy of the manuscript for UQ in the Library of Congress. I noted that in this neat score, the last change made was to change the last note in the trumpet motif half the times it appears, by a half-step to ensure that it was never consonant with the current string chord. The Fourth Symphony, The Second String Quartet are good too. Real Ives. The Three Page Sonata is exciting. The Quarter-Tone Pieces for pianos are crap. I'll have to write new quarter-tone pieces to have something to play. The songs are wonderful, especially on Marni Nixon's album, in which she takes on the persona and voice of the songs' characters. General William Booth Enter in heaven, from Vachal Lindsay's poem, is his best song. The choral stuff is crap. Thomas E. Janzen DEC Marlboro MA Posted: Mon 24-Jun-1985 08:48 EST To: @MUSIC Posted: Mon 24-Jun-1985 08:48 EST To: @CLASSICAL
robdye@ut-sally.UUCP (Rob Dye) (06/25/85)
In article <2843@decwrl.UUCP> janzen@pipa.DEC writes: > ... The Quarter-Tone Pieces for pianos >are crap. I'll have to write new quarter-tone pieces to have something to >play. I'm sure we are all eager to hear your masterpieces. B-) (I wear glasses.) >The choral stuff is crap. [mild flame on] I don't know about the rest of the net, but I find such glib commentary to be insulting to us as readers and to a fine composer. [mild flame off] >The songs are wonderful, especially on Marni Nixon's album, in which >she takes on the persona and voice of the songs' characters. General >William Booth Enter in heaven, from Vachal Lindsay's poem, is his best song. All jesting and flaming aside, is this the album which includes the song "Charlie Rutledge"? ("Another good cowpuncher has gone to meet his fate..." The song starts out as an innocent little trail tune until it begins to recount the way good-old Charlie's horse fell on him during the spring round-up, when the pianist's part turns into a real knuckle-buster. Great fun.) I blindly ordered the Nonesuch album of Ives songs sung by Jan DeGaetani several months ago, believing that it contained that song (which is one of my favorites, obviously) and was disappointed when it arrived to see that it didn't. (Don't get me wrong. I still enjoy the Gaetani album.) Back to the original query about Ives recordings, I enjoy very much my DGG recording of "Three Places in New England". My favorite is the middle mvt, Putnam's Camp. It is a prime example of Ives' "phantasmagorical" style, with marching bands competing against each other. It's a joyous riot. (Michael Tilson Thomas conducts the BSO.) I also like the RCA (?) recording of this same piece which has a nice flip side as well: Roy Harris' Third Symphony. (I think Ormandy conducts the Philadelphia on this one.) _________________________________________________________ Rob Dye Dept. of CS, UTexas at Austin UUCP: {ihnp4,harvard,gatech,ctvax,seismo}!ut-sally!robdye ARPA: robdye@ut-sally.ARPA
cuccia@ucbvax.ARPA (Nick "Coosh" Cuccia) (06/26/85)
In article <2843@decwrl.UUCP> janzen@pipa.DEC (Thomas E. J. LMO4/B5 279-5421 ECL Test) writes: >Charles Ives wrote many fine works. The best work is his First Sonata, which >is the source book of riffs for modern Jazz pianists. Well, maybe, but Stravinsky and Debussy figure pretty high up there, too. >The choral stuff is crap. Hmmm... Depends on your point-of-view, I guess, just as anything else does. I happen to think, having sung several Ives pieces during the past eight years, that his choral music is some of the most interesting and difficult music to sing and listen to... Some pieces, such as _Circus Band_ (which, even with its 3-against-2 final section, is relatively 'tame' for Ives), are fun to listen to, while his Psalms take a lot of effort. If I were offered with a choice of listening to two hours of Ives' choral music -vs- two hours of Philip Glass, I'd take thhe Ives by a long shot. But, then again, I'd take Paul Hindemuth's and Ralph Vaughan Williams' choral works over all.. I'd rather hear melodies/harmonies that en- hance, rather than overwhelm, the lyrics. Is anybody out there doing any Hindemuth? I'd like to hear about it... >Thomas E. Janzen DEC Marlboro MA ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ --Nick "Coosh" Cuccia --{...}!ucbvax!cuccia (USENET) --cuccia%ucbmiro@Berkeley (Arpanet) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- The University wouldn't dare say some of the things that I say.. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
rlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Rich Rosen) (06/26/85)
This has nothing really to do with Ives, but rather with another piece of modern choral music. George Perle, one of the renowned modern scholars of serial composition, wrote a composition called "Sonnets to Orpheus". The only time I have ever heard it was in a performance by the Queens College Choir (he teaches at Queens and I had studied under him there). Does anyone know of a recording of this piece in existence? I've been trying to track it down for some time, and my interest was rekindled when I found a record featuring his works while rummaging through the bins at Tower. I recall it being one of the most exquisite pieces of music I have ever heard. (Whenever I say that and I get the chance to re-listen to something, it's not quite what I recall---I hope that isn't the case this time.) Thanks in advance for any information. -- Like a vermin (HEY!), shot for the very first time... Rich Rosen ihnp4!pyuxd!rlr
keesan@bbnccv.UUCP (Morris M. Keesan) (06/27/85)
---------------------------------------------------
One of my favorite Ives pieces is his "Variations on America". Ives
originally wrote it for organ, and it was arranged for orchestra by William
Schumann (who won a Pulitzer this year). I happen to think that the
transcription for concert band of Schumann's arrangement is the most successful
of the three. Neither the organ nor the orchestra has quite the right range
of timbres to give the proper character to each variation. I'm not aware of
any commercially-available recordings of the band arrangement.
--
Morris M. Keesan
keesan@bbn-unix.ARPA
{decvax,ihnp4,etc.}!bbncca!keesancrandell@ut-sally.UUCP (Jim Crandell) (07/06/85)
> One of my favorite Ives pieces is his "Variations on America". Ives > originally wrote it for organ, and it was arranged for orchestra by William > Schumann (who won a Pulitzer this year). I happen to think that the > transcription for concert band of Schumann's arrangement is the most successful > of the three. Neither the organ nor the orchestra has quite the right range > of timbres to give the proper character to each variation. Sorry, but I must disagree here. Yes, I have heard the band transcription (can't remember where) and if it's played with conviction, it comes off awfully well. It's not really surprising that the band sound seems more appropriate to Ives's youthful boisterousness than the orchestra; Ives was raised a bandman, and to some extent he remained one all his life. But the truly correct medium for this piece is the original. Trouble is, there are a lot of really whimpy recordings of it lying around. That old tape that John Obetz unearths every year for the annual ``patriotic'' issue of his weekly syndicate really ought to be introduced by Kermit Shafer (sp?). Okay, that's an exaggeration. But it's a very clear, precise and distinct performance, and it sounds very Ivesian in a purely technical sort of way (i.e., all the stereotypical Ives harmonies are there); all of the teenager's exhuberant abandon and Ives's very American sense of humor are missing. You want precision, listen to Gillian Weir. Now, on an old Nonesuch release, you'll find the late Dick Elsasser playing it much more like the way Ives himself probably played it (not that Elsasser's performance isn't precise; but what that organ does -- at an appropriately rousing tempo, especially -- often isn't), and it's more fun than, oh, mebbe four-five barrel o' monkeys. The album also includes Ives's chorale prelude on Adeste Fideles, a jewel of magical simplicity which is far too seldom heard. Recorded on the mellow monster of the Hammond Museum (John, not Laurens), which is a topic in and unto itself. Ives wrote ``America Variations'', by the way, when he was 16 or thereabouts. For himself. Say what you will about Ives, he evidently was no slouch as an organist. -- Jim Crandell, C. S. Dept., The University of Texas at Austin {ihnp4,seismo,ctvax}!ut-sally!crandell
keesan@bbnccv.UUCP (Morris M. Keesan) (07/17/85)
In article <60@bbnccv.UUCP> I wrote >> One of my favorite Ives pieces is his "Variations on America". Ives >> originally wrote it for organ, and it was arranged for orchestra by William >> Schumann (who won a Pulitzer this year). I happen to think that the >> transcription for concert band of Schumann's arrangement is the most successful >> of the three. Neither the organ nor the orchestra has quite the right range >> of timbres to give the proper character to each variation. In article <2270@ut-sally.UUCP> crandell@ut-sally.UUCP (Jim Crandell) writes: > >Sorry, but I must disagree here. Yes, I have heard the band transcription >(can't remember where) and if it's played with conviction, it comes off >awfully well. It's not really surprising that the band sound seems more >appropriate to Ives's youthful boisterousness than the orchestra; Ives was >raised a bandman, and to some extent he remained one all his life. But the >truly correct medium for this piece is the original. Trouble is, there are >a lot of really wimpy recordings of it lying around. [. . . example given of wimpy recording, with precision but no exuberance . . .] > >Now, on an old Nonesuch release, you'll find the late Dick Elsasser playing >it much more like the way Ives himself probably played it (not that Elsasser's >performance isn't precise; but what that organ does -- at an appropriately >rousing tempo, especially -- often isn't), and it's more fun than, oh, mebbe >four-five barrel o' monkeys. The album also includes Ives's chorale prelude >on Adeste Fideles, a jewel of magical simplicity which is far too seldom heard. >Recorded on the mellow monster of the Hammond Museum (John, not Laurens), >which is a topic in and unto itself. Well, I think we'll just agree to disagree here. The only recording I've heard of the organ version turns out to be the Nonesuch release you recommend ("Yankee Organ Music" played by Elsasser), and after giving it a re-listen, I'm unconvinced. I'm not going to get involved in debating what a "correct" medium for anything is, but I think that the band version just "works" better. Even the best of organs (and the Hammond Museum organ is definitely in the running) can't get the range of tone colors inherent in even a mediocre band. Of course, I may be biased, having been a band musician for more than half my life, but in this case, I think even the orchestral version works better than the original. The variations in instrumentation give a whole extra dimension to the variations in notes, far beyond what changing stops can do.
pad@mtgzm.UUCP (p.a.dunkin) (07/18/85)
<<munch>> Reference: <2843@decwrl.UUCP> <60@bbnccv.UUCP>, <2270@ut-sally.UUCP> Concerning the original (organ) version of the Charles Ives "Variations on America," crandell@ut-sally.UUCP (Jim Crandell) mentions: > ... Ives's very American sense of humor ... and says: > Ives wrote ``America Variations'', by the way, when he was 16 or thereabouts. > For himself. Say what you will about Ives, he evidently was no slouch as > an organist. I remember hearing that Ives called the Variations "almost as much fun as baseball." And a friend who once played it (them?) in a recital said that the composer's suggested tempo for the last variation is something like "as fast as you can play the pedals." Pat Dunkin (...!ihnp4!mtuxo!mtgzm!pad)