rrizzo@bbncca.ARPA (Ron Rizzo) (08/07/85)
I'm compiling a list of composers, conductors, musicians & critics
who were nazis, nazi sympathizers, worked for the third reich or at
least had cordial relations with it. I'd appreciate any information.
My list so far includes:
Composers (& relatives):
Carl Orff
Richard Strauss
Hans Werner Henze's father
(What about Hans Pfitzner, the late-late Romantic opera composer?)
Conductors (almost everyone!):
Karl Bohm
Wilhelm Furtwangler
Herbert von Karajan (in many ways, the worst: an incredible liar
& apparently completely unrepentant)
Eugen Jochum?
Musicians:
Kirsten Flagstad, deported from the US in late 30s for effusive
praise of nazism
Lawrence Melchior, deported along with Flagstad
Walter Gieseking
(the Austrian pianist Fischer, teacher of Alfred Brendel ?)
I'm also looking for similar information about the various fascisms
(Italy, Spain & Portugal, France, eastern Europe):
Composers:
Gian Francesco Malipiero, compiled definitive edition of Vivaldi
(?) plus major editions of Monteverdi
Musicians:
Beniamino Gigli
Michelangelo de Benedettirlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Rich Rosen) (08/08/85)
You forgot the man who started it all, Richard Wagner (Die Juden en Musica and all that), but may I ask what the point of this search is? I'm speculating, but if the idea is to shun or shirk (or ban?) the music of such people, I fail to see the point. Even I listen to Wagner on occasion, magnificent pompous pretentious composer that he was (although I sing along to "Ride of the Valkyries" by singing "Kill the wabbit! Kill the wabbit! ...") If the music is worth listening to, it's worth listening to. Frankly, I have no idea why you're interested in compiling this list, but I just thought I'd comment on this possible reason that some people use as a means of deciding who (not) to listen to. End of diatribe. -- "Do I just cut 'em up like regular chickens?" Rich Rosen ihnp4!pyuxd!rlr
linda@amdcad.UUCP (Linda Seltzer) (08/08/85)
In article <1516@bbncca.ARPA>, rrizzo@bbncca.ARPA (Ron Rizzo) writes: > I'm compiling a list of composers, conductors, musicians & critics > who were nazis, nazi sympathizers, worked for the third reich or at > least had cordial relations with it. I'd appreciate any information. > > My list so far includes: > > Composers (& relatives): > Carl Orff > Richard Strauss > Hans Werner Henze's father > (What about Hans Pfitzner, the late-late Romantic opera composer?) Why do you identify Henze because of matters concerning his father? What does this mean about Henze? Do offspring have to have the same beliefs as their parents? (Look at author William Burroughs and his grandfather for an example).
benk@inmet.UUCP (08/09/85)
I doubt if anybody nowadays could *really* call
G.F.M.'s edition of Vivaldi 'definitive'.
I'd suggest 'only currently complete edition'
as a better wording.
Picky, picky, I know ...
Ben Krepp
{ihnp4,harpo,ima}!inmet!benkrchrd@well.UUCP (rchrd = Richard Friedman) (08/11/85)
In article <1516@bbncca.ARPA>, rrizzo@bbncca.ARPA (Ron Rizzo) writes: > I'm compiling a list of composers, conductors, musicians & critics > who were nazis, nazi sympathizers, worked for the third reich or at > least had cordial relations with it. I'd appreciate any information. > What conclusions to you hope to arrive out from this kind of investigation. Should we stop listening to Strauss because he was a jerk? -- [rchrd] = Richard Friedman Pacific-Sierra Research, 2855 Telegraph #415 Berkeley, CA 94705 (415) 540 5216 UUCP: {?,?,hplabs)!well!rchrd
greg@olivee.UUCP (Greg Paley) (08/12/85)
> Kirsten Flagstad, deported from the US in late 30s for effusive > praise of nazism > Lawrence Melchior, deported along with Flagstad Blatantly false in both cases, as even the most minimal research would have shown. What did you do, read old Walter Winchell columns? Aside from the fact that I question the value of this "project" in the first place, the use of such sweeping statements would make me seriously question the reliability of any information gathered (and you talk about Karajan being a liar). Melchior continued to perform in the U.S. through the duration of World War II and after. There are broadcast performances available on record with Toscanini, and later from the Metropolitan opera which attest to this. Flagstad returned to Norway but was certainly not deported. Kirsten Flagstad was offered a contract by the Metropolitan in 1935, with very limited terms (nobody apparently dreamed that she would turn out to be the phenomenal success she was). She and her husband came for the duration of the contract, leaving home and family in Norway. As there had been no thought of a permanent move to the U.S., her husband's business was kept running in Norway and eventually required his return. Her successes here led to renewals of the contract and kept her occupied performing in the U.S. until 1941, at which time Norway was under Nazi occupation. By 1941, she had not seen her husband or family for over a year and they were not permitted to leave Norway. She gave in to unbearable homesickness and returned to wartime Norway. Not only was she not deported, but representatives of the U.S. state department tried to discourage her return, primarily out of concern for her personal safety during the return trip. She apparently also had the great misfortune to make a personal enemy of the Norwegian ambassador, Sundfor, which caused her unnecessary grief later. Where ambiguity arose in her case was in the fact that her husband, Henry Johanssen, had been a member of the Quisling party which aligned itself with the Nazi occupation forces. However, in 1942 he left the party, despite serious fears of Nazi retaliation and the possible loss of his business. Nonetheless, immediately after the war he was arrested for suspicion of collaboration and died in a prison hospital before coming to trial. Sundfor was able to obtain the appointment as prosecuting attorney, and managed to prevent Flagstad from leaving the country on the grounds that she could provide valuable evidence as to her husband's doings. It became apparent fairly soon that this was groundless and she was allowed to leave the country, after which she had no difficulty obtaining a U.S. visa and returning to performances in this country, as well as England. There had never been a legal case against her personally. Further, in attempting to discredit her as a means of implicating her husband, Sundfor was unable to produce a shred of proof that she had ever expressed pro-Nazi sentiments or provided pro-Nazi support. This did not prevent the likes of Walter Winchell and Hedda Hopper from labelling her as a Nazi and instigating demonstrations against her. This caused her to be harrassed for several years after her return to this country and led to stink-bomb throwings during concerts and more serious threats to opera managements (particularly in San Francisco). Those managements, however, refused to knuckle under and continued to support her. Furthermore, on taking charge of the Metropolitan opera in the early 50's, Rudolf Bing, who was Jewish and as vehement as anyone about barring Nazi performers (which was why he would not have Elisabeth Schwarzkopf for many years) insisted on Flagstad's immediate return to the Metropolitan opera. Flagstad's return to, and acceptance by operatic and concert management in this country as well as, of course, the granting of her visa are a matter of record and can be found easily in various musical chronicles which indicate who sang what where and when by anyone who is interested. Her own statements have been documented in an autobiography and are substantially corroborated by other documents of the time. There is no documentation to support the deportation that never happened and the only evidence of pro-Nazi sentiments on her part are to be found in rumor (the prominent one, which she vehemently denied, being that she once referred to Erich Leinsdorf as "that Jew") and gossip columns on the level of the "National Enquirer". As a matter of fact, the "National Enquirer" seems a more appropriate forum for this entire project. - Greg Paley
dep@allegra.UUCP (Dewayne Perry) (08/13/85)
<notCism: the approach to composition that refuses to recognize ....> I wasn't going to add to this at all - the responses to this have been quite good and to the point in addition to being informative (I even agreed with Rosen - egads :-). Music is to be judged on musical grounds, not political grounds. Performers and performances are to be judged also on musical grounds. Whether the composer/performer has a particular political position, is of a particular race, is of a particular religion, etc., is immaterial, except to the extent that it affects the quality of the composition/performance. Even her/his personality is completely immaterial when judging the product. What seems to me to be far more important is where the state affects the music itself. A good case in point is the state response of Russia to the "formalism" of Prokofiev and Shostokovich. Both had to beg forgivness and promise not to do it again in order to continue composing. That is something to get incensed about (independent of whether you think that there music is better or worse because of it). The extent to which the Nazis suppressed and destroyed music/composers/musicians/performances is what is important. The extent to which inidivuals participated is a measure of their culpability. Their individual art, on the other hand, is independent of all this crap. to paraphrase: I may think that you are a jerk [fill in your own epithets] but I will defend to the death your right to be a great artist. (on the other hand if your stuff is mediocre, I may have to reconsider :-). Dewayne Perry
smb@ulysses.UUCP (Steven Bellovin) (08/13/85)
> I wasn't going to add to this at all - the responses to this have been > quite good and to the point in addition to being informative (I even > agreed with Rosen - egads :-). Music is to be judged on musical grounds, > not political grounds. Performers and performances are to be judged > also on musical grounds. Whether the composer/performer has a particular > political position, is of a particular race, is of a particular religion, etc., > is immaterial, except to the extent that it affects the quality of the > composition/performance. Even her/his personality is completely immaterial > when judging the product. Yes and no; there's at least one real-world exception that comes to mind: Wagner. First, he himself was a notorious anti-Semite. Second, his music was adopted by the Nazis and was used as a symbol of the Third Reich. (He himself was dead by that time.) That doesn't mean that his music is bad; however, many people object to having it played because of the (non-musical) images in evokes in them. For example, Wagner's music is never played by Israeli orchestras. When Zubin Mehta attempted to do so -- he's the conductor of the Israel Philharmonic -- many musicians walked out. An analogy might be the swastika emblem -- it was an ancient symbol with no particular evil connotations; I've even seen it inscribed on the walls of ancient synagogues. But that could never be done now, and rightly so. --Steve Bellovin P.S. Just because I'm explaining this doesn't mean I agree with it; I'm quite ambivalent. An ironic footnote to all this is what happened to the New York Philarmonic -- also conducted by Mehta -- on its recent Asian tour. Malaysia requested that they drop several works by Jewish composers from the program; Mehta initially agreed, but cancelled the visit to Malaysia entirely when folks complained.
carnes@gargoyle.UUCP (Richard Carnes) (08/13/85)
--
> (the Austrian pianist Fischer, teacher of Alfred Brendel ?)
Edwin Fischer (1886-1960) was actually Swiss, and (as far as I am
aware) resided in Switzerland for most of his life. Besides being
the teacher of Paul Badura-Skoda, Alfred Brendel, and others, he was
one of the great pianists of the century, and should not be tarred
with the brush of fascism unless the evidence is compelling. Same
goes for Gieseking and Michelangeli.
^
Richard Carnes, ihnp4!gargoyle!carnescarnes@gargoyle.UUCP (Richard Carnes) (08/14/85)
Re Walter Gieseking: The *International Cyclopaedia of Music and Musicians* says that the German pianist was suspected by a segment of the public of pro-Nazi sympathies, and protests forced the cancellation of his first postwar American recital in New York in 1949. Later he was cleared by an Allied court in Germany. In 1953 he made a triumphant return to the US; he died in 1956. Edwin Fischer apparently lived for a good many years in Berlin; an encyclopedia states that he returned to Switzerland in 1942. I have no information on his relationship, if any, with the Third Reich. He did hold a high teaching post at the (?) Berlin Hochschule until 1935, whatever that may mean. Moral (for me): research first, post later. Richard Carnes, ihnp4!gargoyle!carnes
rrizzo@bbncca.ARPA (Ron Rizzo) (08/14/85)
I could be bitchy & say, "my, how touchy we are!" Why does
the mere broaching of certain topics raise the spectre of
"censorship" or "ad hominem attack" with some people?
Why does my request for info have to "have a point"? I didn't
say I'd recommend acting in any way on the findings (ie, smash
all my Carl Boehm albums )=: ). Information about music and
nazism certainly has strong intrinsic interest. It's often
(as in the case of von Karajan) front-page material.
Oddly enough, I think publishing such information is a public
service, though maybe one that much of the musical public doesn't
welcome. And I think the desire to know has a moral, as well as
prurient, dimension to it.
Most of the affected musical figures are musicians and conductors
rather than composers, so mainly interpretations and performances
of music rather than the music itself are involved.
I mentioned Henze's father because my topic was broad: any positive
relation between music & nazism. The contemporary physicist Carl
von Weizaecker has written extensively about his famous nazi father.
It's ok in science writing, so why not in music?
Though I'm trying to avoid the issue of music "tainted" by nazism,
in other arts it's considered a valid question: for example, Susan
Sontag wrote a well-known critique of the films (& cult) of Leni
Riefenstahl, hitler's principal cinematographer, claiming even
her pre-1933 work was imbued with a [sic.?] "nazi aesthetic".
The contemporary filmmaker Syberberg has explored Wagner & his
work as a precursor of nazism in more than one film ("Our Hitler",
"Parsifal").
It's become nearly standard fare in literature to investigate
nazi connections not only in terms of history & biography but
criticism as well: Pound, Celine, even TS Eliot have all received
generous amounts of attention in this vein. But in music, I sense
a great reluctance to even raise the issue, perhaps out of defen-
siveness because nazism arose in the musical heartland of Germany
& Austria, potentially affecting the musical life of decades in
many ways. Music seems retrograde on the nazi question, compared
to the other arts & sciences.
Maybe I'm just a trouble-maker, but my impression is that many
audiophiles aren't aware of the extent of the relationship (I'm
not either: personal mail I've received has surprised me; the
more I look & ask, the more I seem to find), or don't want to
know. All the more reason to get the word out.
Regards,
Ron Rizzodep@allegra.UUCP (Dewayne Perry) (08/14/85)
<> The problem of Wagner being adopted byt the Third Reich and its subsequent symbolism is indeed a problem. But, I submit, it is an extra-musical one. The use of Wagner as a symbol similar to the swastica is taking himout of the realm of music and giving hima nd his music another use. (similar things happen to music in other contexts - one Schubert piece has ben forever ruined by Allen Sherman?s "hello mudder, hello fadder") Its symbolic use may indeed have grave consequences, but they are independent of is musicality. keep music pure - Dewayne
prk@charm.UUCP (Paul Kolodner) (08/14/85)
Yaaaaagh! Alan Sherman's "Hello Mudder, Hello Fadder.." song was not written by Schubert! Let's hear from everyone who can guess who the real composer was. How's that for trivializing an inportant discussion? A great talent of mine, actually.
levy@ttrdc.UUCP (Daniel R. Levy) (08/14/85)
In article <4938@allegra.UUCP>, dep@allegra.UUCP (Dewayne Perry) writes: >of the realm of music and giving hima nd his music another use. (similar >things happen to music in other contexts - one Schubert piece has ben forever >ruined by Allen Sherman?s "hello mudder, hello fadder") > I always thought that parody was based on Ponchielli's "Dance of the Hours." Schubert?!? (Maybe the middle movement, which does not sound quite like anything in the Ponchielli piece, is Schubert's... can anyone name the original?) BTW, another Sherman parody, "Here's to the Crabgrass," seems to be based on an Old English Morris Dance... the reason I mention this is that the two pieces (excerpts from the classical originals) appear near the beginning of the John Thompson 2nd grade piano book and I sometimes wonder if Allan (or someone in his family) was taking lessons out of this book when the tunes gave him the idea.... -- ------------------------------- Disclaimer: The views contained herein are | dan levy | yvel nad | my own and are not at all those of my em- | an engihacker @ | ployer, my pets, my plants, my boss, or the | at&t computer systems division | s.a. of any computer upon which I may hack. | skokie, illinois | | "go for it" | Path: ..!ihnp4!ttrdc!levy -------------------------------- or: ..!ihnp4!iheds!ttbcad!levy
jeffw@tekecs.UUCP (Jeff Winslow) (08/14/85)
>> I wasn't going to add to this at all - the responses to this have been >> quite good and to the point in addition to being informative (I even >> agreed with Rosen - egads :-). Music is to be judged on musical grounds, >> not political grounds. Performers and performances are to be judged >> also on musical grounds. Whether the composer/performer has a particular >> political position, is of a particular race, religion, etc., >> is immaterial, except to the extent that it affects the quality of the >> composition/performance. Even her/his personality is completely immaterial >> when judging the product. > > Yes and no; there's at least one real-world exception that comes to mind: > Wagner. First, he himself was a notorious anti-Semite. Second, his music > was adopted by the Nazis and was used as a symbol of the Third Reich. (He > himself was dead by that time.) That doesn't mean that his music is bad; > however, many people object to having it played because of the (non-musical) > images in evokes in them. And some people imagine they hear Wagner's unsavoury personality coming through his music. I wonder how many people who do have ever done any but superficial listening to his music. Personally, I don't buy it. And I've spent a lot of time playing it and listening to it (especially Tristan). I have to disagree; Wagner is not an exception to the criteria given. Even if he was an asshole. Jeff Winslow
greg@olivee.UUCP (Greg Paley) (08/14/85)
> things happen to music in other contexts - one Schubert piece has ben forever > ruined by Allen Sherman?s "hello mudder, hello fadder") > Sorry to nitpick, but the piece Sherman used for this was the Dance of the Hours from Ponchielli's opera "La Gioconda". Sherman may have kicked it further into the grave, but for me it had already been "ruined" by the accompanying vision of hippos dancing in tutus as it was done in Walt Disney's "Fantasia". - Greg Paley
linda@amdcad.UUCP (Linda Seltzer) (08/14/85)
> > Oddly enough, I think publishing such information is a public > service, though maybe one that much of the musical public doesn't > welcome. And I think the desire to know has a moral, as well as > prurient, dimension to it. > > > I mentioned Henze's father because my topic was broad: any positive > relation between music & nazism. The contemporary physicist Carl > von Weizaecker has written extensively about his famous nazi father. > It's ok in science writing, so why not in music? It is a service to publish documented historical information, but drawing links between parents and siblings with no detailed facutal information is wrong. For example, suppose, in personal life, someone is talking about me. I am quite sure that my father voted for Reagan. I worked for Mondale. Should my friends and collegaues assume that I voted for the same person as my father. Are you sure that Reagan's artist son voted for Reagan in the privacy of the voting booth? So going back to the matter of Henze, do you have any information on Henze's writings which support your inclusion of him in this study. Some siblings like their parents, but there are plenty who are unlike or even the opposite of their parents. I really dislike any judgments of a person based upon who his or her family is. Linda Seltzer
winkg@vice.UUCP (Wink Gross) (08/16/85)
You're all forgetting the real father of Nazi music:
Franz Joseph "Papa" Haydn.
He wrote the tune for "Deutschland uber alles" way back in 1797.
The bum.
Wink Gross
Tektronix, Inc
Beaverton, ORjeffw@tekecs.UUCP (Jeff Winslow) (08/17/85)
> You're all forgetting the real father of Nazi music: > > Franz Joseph "Papa" Haydn. > > He wrote the tune for "Deutschland uber alles" way back in 1797. I think the tune is much older than that. Haydn just happened to use it in a movement of a string quartet. Once, on a wine tour in the Napa valley, I stopped to see a geyser that was in this guy's back yard (only a dollar!). The geyser was pretty good, for all that - shot up about 60 feet (did he have a pump running it?), but what was wierd was that the "background music" that was played while the various tourists/suckers were waiting for the thing to go off was this very same string quartet movement. Anybody else been there? Jeff Winslow
jeffw@tekecs.UUCP (Jeff Winslow) (08/17/85)
> I could be bitchy & say, "my, how touchy we are!" Why does > the mere broaching of certain topics raise the spectre of > "censorship" or "ad hominem attack" with some people? > > Oddly enough, I think publishing such information is a public > service, though maybe one that much of the musical public doesn't > welcome. And I think the desire to know has a moral, as well as > prurient, dimension to it. Perhaps. But the connection of a person with the Nazi regime can only have the purpose of trying to make them and their work look bad (unless, I suppose, you happen to be a Nazi). So when you make those connections lightly, as you did with Flagstad and Henze, you are basically slandering these people. Is that what you call a "public service" ? > Most of the affected musical figures are musicians and conductors > rather than composers, so mainly interpretations and performances > of music rather than the music itself are involved. So? How can the quality of performance of a piece of music depend on the political beliefs of the performers? > It's become nearly standard fare in literature to investigate > nazi connections not only in terms of history & biography but > criticism as well: Pound, Celine, even TS Eliot have all received > generous amounts of attention in this vein. But in music, I sense > a great reluctance to even raise the issue, perhaps out of defen- > siveness because nazism arose in the musical heartland of Germany > & Austria, potentially affecting the musical life of decades in > many ways. Music seems retrograde on the nazi question, compared > to the other arts & sciences. No, what you sense is the intelligence of musicians who realize that "nazi connections" have nothing whatever to do with the quality of music itself, which, being musicians, is what they're interested in. Just because they have not joined in the latest critical fad does not mean they are "retrograde" in any sense. > Maybe I'm just a trouble-maker, but my impression is that many > audiophiles aren't aware of the extent of the relationship (I'm > not either: personal mail I've received has surprised me; the > more I look & ask, the more I seem to find), or don't want to > know. All the more reason to get the word out. Why? And why are you so surprised? Germany, the home of Naziism, was (and is) one of the most musical coutries in the world. It's hardly surprising that many musicians were Nazis and vice-versa. Or do you imagine that somehow being a musician should make one better able to see through the (apparently) attractive facade that Naziism presented, to its terrible reality? Artur Schnabel, in "My Life and Music", had some pertinent things to say about this. (It's a good book, you might check it out.) I still don't see that a musician being a Nazi has any more significance than any other example of someone being an expert in one field and a jerk in another, unrelated field. After reading Shockley's "sociological" theories, one may think less of him as a person, but does that make his contributions to physics any less important? Jeff Winslow
purtell@reed.UUCP (Lady Godiva) (08/18/85)
In article <364@ttrdc.UUCP> levy@ttrdc.UUCP (Daniel R. Levy) writes: >In article <4938@allegra.UUCP>, dep@allegra.UUCP (Dewayne Perry) writes: > >>of the realm of music and giving hima nd his music another use. (similar >>things happen to music in other contexts - one Schubert piece has ben forever >>ruined by Allen Sherman?s "hello mudder, hello fadder") >> > >I always thought that parody was based on Ponchielli's "Dance of the Hours." >Schubert?!? (Maybe the middle movement, >which does not sound quite like anything >in the Ponchielli piece, is Schubert's... can anyone name the original?) It is based on Ponchielli's "Dance of the Hours" which is also used in the movie Fantasia for the ballet with the ostriches, hippoes, etc. I couldn't tell you about the middle movement of the song though - I don't remember it that well. cheers - elizabeth g. purtell (Lady Godiva)
rrizzo@bbncca.ARPA (Ron Rizzo) (08/19/85)
OK, Gordon, here's the beginning of a list of composers who may've been homosexual, so you can take preventive measures against AIDS transmission (remember, avoid exchange of body fliuds): Francois Poulenc Henry Cowell (Ives' publisher/promoter, despite Ives' lack of of gratitude: Ives & Ruggles were pronounced homophobes) Maurice Ravel Anton Bruckner Gustav Mahler Franz Peter Schubert Robert Schumann Ludwig van Beethoven (nephew Karl his only true love?) Samuel Barber Antonio Vivaldi Georg Friedrich Handel I could add a rather large number of living composers, some open & some closeted, but I don't want to trigger the Vladimir Horowitz syndrome & get sued. So, Mr. Moffett, you'll just have to forego listening to contemporary music unless the composer is defunct. Regards, Ron Rizzo
simon@psuvax1.UUCP (Janos Simon) (08/20/85)
Summary:it wasn't always Deutschland Ueber Alles - Haydn wasn't a bum The tune referred to may or may not be original Haydn (it may have been an Austrian folk song). In any case, Haydn popularized it, in a song, in piano variations, and in the slow movement of a string quartet. It became the Austrian national anthem, with words that mean "God save the Emperor" - not a Nazi hymn. Like the old sanscrit symbol swastika, it was stolen by the Nazis. Unlike the swastika, the tune is still beautiful, and has not been used since WWII as a Nazi symbol (neo-Nazis may not be musical enough) so as the generation that heard it in its Nazi context dies off, it will, hopefully lose its modern connotations and become again just a nice piece of music. Haydn wasn't a bum - in fact he was a neat and gutsy fellow. People who make stupid and groundless accusations are bums. As for the original query, I think there is some interest in exploring how great artists could become nazis - not necessarily to condemn, but to understand and possibly to avoid similar traps. I recommend very strongly a work of fiction that does this beautifully: the novel Mephisto by Klaus Mann. (There is also a film version - the book is better). js
ccrrick@ucdavis.UUCP (Rick Heli) (08/20/85)
I try not to make the mistake of confusing the art and the artist. -- --rick heli (... ucbvax!ucdavis!groucho!ccrrick)
carnes@gargoyle.UUCP (Richard Carnes) (08/20/85)
In article <1532@bbncca.ARPA> rrizzo@bbncca.ARPA (Ron Rizzo) writes: >OK, Gordon, here's the beginning of a list of composers who may've been >homosexual... I take it that by the term "homosexual" you include people who were attracted to members of the opposite sex throughout most of their lives, so that a person may be both homosexual and heterosexual. Or do I misunderstand you? I am trying to figure out why your list includes Schumann and Beethoven, but omits Tchaikovsky. What is the biographical evidence that either Schumann or Beethoven had any homosexual relationships? If there is none, allow me to present my list of American presidents who may have been homosexual: Ronald Reagan Jimmy Carter Gerald Ford Richard Nixon Lyndon Johnson etc. Richard Carnes
lewish@acf2.UUCP (Henry M. Lewis) (08/21/85)
> "Here's to the Crabgrass"
is Percy Grainger's "Country Gardens," I believe.
--Hank Lewis ..!ihnp4!cmcl2!acf2!lewishrfg@hound.UUCP (R.GRANTGES) (08/23/85)
Ach! Mein Gott! Here go I getting involved in this assinine subject. Aren't you folks confusing two entirely different songs? The old austrian tune, immortalized by haydn, etc. is the theme of the German National Anthem: Deutschland, Deutschland, uber alles.... think of it as like the star spangled banner. Many germans could proudly sing that song, before, during, and after WW II. It had no more connection with the Nazi Party than the star strangled banner does with the republican party with Reagan in office. The Nazi party had another song entirely, haunting and beautiful itself, I have no idea where it came from. It is the "Horst Vessel" song. Horst was , I think, a brown shirt youth who was killed in one of the street battles in the early 30's. Anyhow, the song was dedicated to him and became the official Nazi Party anthem, but not the national anthem. Again, think, perhaps, of "Happy days are here again" and FDR, although we americans just don't get political about our songs the way europeans do. I wish someone could explain the origin of the horst vessel song. If modern, who composed it? it sounds pretty good, especially on horns. Too bad it was ruined by its association. But I don't think that Deutschland uber alles was ruined by association. Until I started reading some of this stuff recently I didn't think anyone thought it was. -- "It's the thought, if any, that counts!" Dick Grantges hound!rfg
prk@charm.UUCP (Paul Kolodner) (08/23/85)
"The Germans have a mahvelous national anthem: "German, German overalls'" -Flanders and Swann
larsen@utah-gr.UUCP (Mark Larsen) (09/04/85)
In your list of homosexual composers, you forgot my favorite:
P. I. Tchaikovsky.
-lml--
-----------
Ma faute! Comment cela? L. Mark Larsen
UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|hplabs|seismo}!utah-gr!larsen
ARPA: oper.larsen@utah-20.arpa
USnail: 4602 So. 600 E. Salt Lake City, UT 84107