trickey@alice.UucP (Howard Trickey) (10/14/85)
I received 12 responses to my query about buying a grand piano.
I'll try to summarize the preferences, and then follow it with
the detailed comments, grouped by piano. And there are a few
miscellaneous comments at the end. I haven't yet had time to
look at pianos seriously (just moved to NY area, and enjoying
the local music scene!), so I can't report any decision on my part.
Sort of averaging all the responses, the preferences were something like:
(best) Bosendorfer, Steinway, Yamaha, Kawai, Baldwin (less preferable)
but there were some strong dissents.
Those that ranked pianos (curly brackets enclose equal classes):
Steinway, Yamaha, Baldwin, Steinway upright, Yamaha upright
-- Mary Walsh (ihnp3!mlw)
Steinway, Yamaha, {Baldwin, Chickering, Kawai, Mason & Hamlin, Kimball}
-- Willie Heck (mtung!wsh)
{Petrof, Steinway, Galicia, Bosendorfer}, (bad): {Yamaha, Kawai, Baldwin}
-- Bill Hsu (ihnp4!pur-ee!hsut)
Bosendorfer, Steinway, {Yamaha, Kawai, Sauter, Shimmel, Baldwin},
{other American-mades, Korean-mades}
-- Kyu Lee (allegra!fluke!tikal!dataio!butler!lee)
Steinway, Kawai, Yamaha
-- Brint Cooper (abc@brl-sem.arpa) (his professional musician daughter)
Bosendorfer, Yamaha Concert Grand, Baldwin Concert Grand, (bad): Steinway,
Kawai
-- Dave Kirkby
Four others (Paul Rubin (ucbvax!phr), Michael Fairman
(ihnp4!uiucdcs!b.CS.UIUC.EDU!fairman), Carla Meninsky
(ihnp4!amd!turtlevax!weitek!carla), and David Brown (dlb%b%lanl.arpa))
just mentioned Steinway, and the kind of Steinway they like.
Now here are the detailed comments.
STEINWAY
Mary Walsh:
In my opinion, nothing beats a Steinway. The Steinway's best
quality lies in its rich bass. I don't know how much they cost
these days. A grand piano, by the way, is not the only way to get
a decent amount of sound. Steinway builds an upright, the sounding
board of which is competitive with many small grands.
... And by the way, don't eliminate the idea of a used piano. In
fact, Steinway's quality used to be even better than it is now.
Willie Heck:
Steinways are great instruments, but there is a real cost
problem with them. $10,000 will not come close to getting a new
Steinway grand, although you can get very good uprights in that
range.
... The one thing I should say about Steinways is that they tend to vary
greatly from one sample to the other; sometimes in quality, but
more often in personality.
... I don't think that having a Steinway concert
grand would add much to my playing, even though I would know and
love the difference.
Kyu Lee:
(Mercedes class)...$20000 and up. A good used rebuilt 1920s
model-O (5' 10") should cost $8500-13000, depending on the degree
of goodness. Excellent sound, looks, prestige, and the resale
value should make this a top choice.
Paul Rubin:
Steinways have the best mechanical design in the keyboard action that
I know of. You can really feel what is going on when you press down
on a key. You have much more control over the texture of the sound
that you produce than other top quality pianos.
Michael Faiman:
We decided to look for a **used** Steinway. ... We ended up with
an L (5'11") in walnut, in terrific condition for, I believe, $4500.
... A Steinway, unlike almost anything else you buy, will appreciate in
value. May as well get a good one!
... Steinways are made in both New York and Hamburg.
Many people will tell you that the German models are uniformly better. We
do now also have a Hamburg B in addition to our New York L and it does
indeed have a richer tone. However, pianos are built by hand, and there
is more variation from one unit to another than a consistent variation
between the German and American models. Sizes. Have changed over the
course of time. There used to be A (concert), B, C and D. Then L, M and
S (you guessed it). The predecessor of the L was the O. I don't recall
all the details. Nowadays, I believe that only the A (9'), B (7') and
L (6') are made.
Carla Meninsky:
i bought a Steinway upright 5 years ago when i couldn't afford it (i ended
up with an inflated loan through the dealer, not really understanding
about loans at the time only that i wanted that piano). i also didn't
have a proper place to keep it (an unheated, fairly damp room in the
back) but it still sounds fabulous and it managed to hold up despite
the adverse conditions. i grew up with a chickering but now i wouldn't
buy anything but a steinway. my piano teacher has 2 full-sized grands
side by side in her house. one is a steinway, the other is a hoffman(?)
they have very similar action and tonal quality, however the steinway
keeps in tune longer and isn't as susceptible to weather conditions. its
amazing some days to hear how different they can sound.
also many of the stores around here sell used steinway grands at a much
more affordable price. often they're only a few years old.
David Brown:
I bought a piano about 4 years ago after quite a bit of looking.
I looked at all kinds of different new Japanese pianos, and in the
end bought a 20 year old German Steinway, which cost me about as much
as a new Steinway at that time. (The American and German branches
of the Steinway company went their separate ways quite a few years
ago, it may have even been in the 20s, and there are alot of people
who feel that German Steinways are better instruments, but I have
never been able to get a straight answer as to why they are really
better, or if they are.) In the end the bottom line for me was that
I liked the tone and the feel of the action of the piano I bought better
than most of the other pianos that I looked at. I also looked at older
Steinways, mostly recently rebuilt ones from
the first quarter of the century that were for sale in piano shops.
What worried me about such old pianos was the comments a number of
people made about the fact that you can never be sure that the
soundboard of an old piano will last-- it's not a question of
cracks in the soundboard, those are often OK and do not affect the
sound, but there is a slight curvature in a soundboard called the
"crown" which can collapse, and essentially destroys the tone
of the instrument if this happens.
On the other hand, my brother recently bought a used Steinway model
O privately for about $7K, which seemed to be in very good shape and
which has a very nice tone, and of course the Steinway action. In
the end, I think he concluded that it was nicer than the
similarly priced Japanese pianos, which he also looked at.
By the way, I have been particularly underwhelmed by almost all
of the new Steinways I have played on. I don't get the feeling that
the American Steinway company has really had a good idea of what
they have been doing for the last 30 years at least. The pianos are
just not as nice as the older ones, or as the German ones. I wouldn't
buy a recently built Steinway just for the name, certainly, and I
doubt you'll find one that sounds very impressive.
... An older Steinway bought privately from
someone who has kept it in their living room for the last 50 years
and not played it much is what I would look for , but again, you
will probably have trouble finding such a thing.
Dave Kirkby:
I was disappointed by the dullness of the Steinway. The midrange sounds like
you're playing behind a thick curtain. Almost pure sine waves, very little
harmonics. The bass range is very powerful, with rich harmonics. As you get
up toward middle C, however, the harmonics disappear and the sound becomes
dull. It sounds like the hammers are not quite hard enough. The high
range is also dull, although not quite as dull as the Baldwin's.
I don't like the Steinway. Steinways appear on many concert recordings,
and Steinway by their freebie marketing has convinced the public that the true
piano sound is dull and thuddy like their pianos.
YAMAHA, KAWAI
Mary Walsh:
Yamaha is my second choice. Of all the "less expensive" pianos,
Yamaha is the closest in quality to Steinway.
Willie Heck:
After [Steinway], my favorite piano (and the one that I finally
chose) is a Yamaha. They make several grades of grands (I think
they are the "G", "J", and "C" series); of the various grades, the
"C" is the best. The "G" and "J" start with a baby grand, while
the smallest "C" is one size up from that, a six-footer called the
"C3." After that there are several other sizes, "C5", "C7", and
"CF" (the nomenclature here is subject to both memory lapses and
obsolescence). I once had a piano tuner who was working on my
piano (and who seemed to be on intimate terms with every piano in
Monmouth County) tell me that the "C3" was the only consistently
good piano in the "C" series, but this is not something I can
confirm. What I can confirm is that in looking for my piano I
played almost every brand I could find, and of the Baldwins,
Chickerings, Kawais, Mason & Hamlins, and Kimballs I looked at,
nothing was even close to the Yamaha "C". I lump the Baldwins in
with all the others; the one I played extensively cost far more
than the Yamaha and did not (to me) sound as good. I finally
bought a Yamaha "C3D" and I have loved it ever since. Check out
the other Yamahas as well, you may find that either a "G" or a "J"
is right (certainly they are all good and all fairly priced).
... I've heard that the Yamaha "C3E" (the successor to my "C3D")
now weighs in at about $11,500.
Bill Hsu:
I consider Yamaha grands pieces of crap which have tinny sounds, poor
action and will deteriorate after a few months of use, but there are
people who like it. ... I'd suggest to stay away from
things made in Asia such as Kawai and Yamaha because I don't think they
keep very well. They sound great when new because of a bright, open sound,
but the sound gets metallic and hard very quickly.
Kyu Lee:
(Affordable class) Yamaha G-series at $11K list (you can dicker to say 9K) or
Kawaii G series at some $600 less gives good sound at a much less
cost. The value does not hold as well as Steinway. Both Y and K
have concert grands (C-series for Y and S-series for K), which are
$1000-1700 higher but brighter sounds; I prefer the latter. I think
the quality are about same, but Yamaha is better known, hence the
price premium.
Hank Lewis:
My older-is-better theory applies, by the way, only to grand pianos. If you
want an upright, try the top-of-the-line Yamaha--a friend of mine loves his.
I don't know its price.
Dave Kirkby:
Yamaha Concert Grand - This nine-footer sounds much better than
their cheaper grands. It sounds better than most other concert grands, as well.
It is the closest to the Bosendorfer of all the competitors. The middle range
is especially rich and melodious, much like that of the Bosendorfer, although
not quite as crisp.
Kawai - Truly inferior to all of the above [Bosendorfer, Yamaha, Baldwin,
Steinway]. Sound is harsh and glaring, much like those cheap baby grands.
... The best spinet I have ever heard is the Kawai, and it sounds better than
some grands. If you're looking for a good sounding piano without the
grand piano price, the Kawai is definitely the way to go at about $1500.
BALDWIN
Mary Walsh:
Baldwin used to be my second choice. It also is a very good
piano. Baldwin is better known for its crisp sound, especially in
the treble. I have liked Baldwin grands better than the Baldwin
uprights.
Bill Hsu:
I'm kind of biased against American pianos which are not as good as
the Steinway (e.g. Baldwin), but that's probably because the ones I've
tried are not very well-maintained.
Kyu Lee:
(Affordable Class) Baldwin (American) has had ups & downs. The up-ones are very
good & are worth considering for $3K higher than Yamaha.
Dave Kirkby:
Baldwin Concert Grand - Not as rich as the Yamaha, but much better
than those below it [includes Steinway]. The Baldwin has a beautiful midrange,
but its bass range lacks punch and its high range is somewhat dull.
BOSENDORFER
Bill Hsu:
Bosendorfers (from Austria) are also very nice (a little more conventional action).
Kyu Lee:
(Rolls Royce class) A truly outstanding piano, but the price premium does
not justify the sound that us mortals can make.
Paul Rubin:
One of my teachers says that Bosendorfer would really have something, if the
action they used weren't so hard to control.
David Brown:
My favorite piano (after my own [German Steinway]): a Bosendorfer, but they
are outrageously overpriced.
Dave Kirkby:
The Rolls Royce of pianos, unquestionably the best piano in the world.
Many pianists insist on using the Bosendorfer when they give a concert,
even though Steinway often offers free usage of their pianos to celebrities
and Bosendorfer charges a mint. ... I believe they start at around $25,000.
The Bosendorfer is by far the best sounding piano I have ever heard.
Most pianos just make a sound when you press the keys. The Bosendorfer SINGS.
It is a true joy to listen to, and is the standard by which all other pianos
should be judged.
OTHER PIANOS
Bill Hsu:
I have a Petrof (from Czechkoslovakia) at home which
I cry for when I'm at school 11 months of the year. It cost less than a
Steinway 7 years ago, has a lovely warm sweet sound, but rather heavy
action (the last "feature/bug" can be easily fixed of course).
I've also had good experiences with a Galicia (maybe Calicia?) from Poland.
Kyu Lee:
Sauter (German) and Shimmel (German) are both good [in the "Affordable class"]
and 3-5K higher than Yamaha.
(Ground floor class): Kimbal, Everet, Con, and other American mades,
Youngchang, Sherman Clay, Shafer & Sons, and other Korean mades.
They cost anywhere from $5-7K. I would definitely opt for a
Korean made over an American chippo. It sounds much better. Koreans,
I think, copied Yamaha, and with their cheaper labor produced
reasonably priced pianos.
Hank Lewis:
I bought my 1932 Knabe 5'10" grand five years ago for $2200 from a Times ad.
I have not had it restored (would cost about $3000 to do so); still, I have no
doubt that it is a better instrument that could be made today.
OTHER COMMENTS
Almost everyone:
Hire a piano technician to look over any piano before buying.
Kyu Lee:
... In any case, you should not buy anything less than 6'. If
you are strapped for cash/space, then you can reluctantly go down to
5'10". At least that is what my teacher and my sister-and brother-inlaws,
all of who are professional concert pianists, say.
... Oh, on another subject, my tuner says that satin finish is better than glossy
finish. Glossy looks good and easy to clean, but on the other hand only
a few spots of dirt will show pronouncedly. Also, if you have a scratch,
it is a lot more difficult to hide and/or correct it for a glossy finish.
... 4 years ago I did some extensive analysis and shopping, and landed
a Kawaii KS series. It is a good one and I have no regrets.
Well, maybe one; I should have invested $3K more and have gotten a used Steinway. Not because of the quality of sound, but because of the other reasons
I cited above [resale value].
Brint Cooper:
... Are you studying privately with a good teacher? If
not, don't expect to "get better" so that you'll be able to
tell the difference in a year.
... Must it be a grand? For under $5000, you can get a
full upright with the SAME action as a grand in much less
space. Unless you have lots of room, the volume from a grand
can blow you out of the house. On the other hand, we have a
small 60-year old Chickering in our lliving room and it adds
immeasurable class!
Paul Rubin:
"Conversations with Arrau" by Joseph Horowitz (I highly recommend this
book) says amusing things about how Arrau tests pianos, but not everyone
can be like that.
GETTING A PIANO IN NEW JERSEY
You might like to check out Altenburg Piano House in
downtown Elizabeth. They are a large piano dealer which
has been around for more than 125 years. -- Andrew Koenig
I bought [my Yamaha] at Freehold Music Center, on Route 9 in Freehold.
They have showrooms in various malls, but there is a much larger
selection at the Freehold address. -- Willie Heck
In my area, the New York Times is the best source for
pianos of this quality. I peruse the ads occasionally--just last week there
was a Steinway model B for $7000. I suspect that if it needed work, it would
be easy to find a shop to resore it for a few thousand more. -- Hank Lewisdvw@petrus.UUCP (Dan V. Wilson) (10/15/85)
A few excerpts from the article: > ... The one thing I should say about Steinways is that they tend to vary > greatly from one sample to the other; sometimes in quality, but > more often in personality. > indeed have a richer tone. However, pianos are built by hand, and there > is more variation from one unit to another than a consistent variation > between the German and American models. Sizes. Have changed over the > I was disappointed by the dullness of the Steinway. The midrange sounds like > you're playing behind a thick curtain. Almost pure sine waves, very little > harmonics. The bass range is very powerful, with rich harmonics. As you get > up toward middle C, however, the harmonics disappear and the sound becomes > dull. It sounds like the hammers are not quite hard enough. The high There is lots more, but you get the idea. Question: How much of the variations mentioned above can be attributed to variations in the texture of the felt on the hammers? I recall listening to an interview of a piano tuner on NPR where the tuner stated that he could change the sound of a piano considerably just by using various tools to loosen or compact the felt on the hammers. He would customize the piano to the taste of the pianist, and for the piece being played. The closest I come to being a pianist is being able to listen to recordings. However, it struck me that someone looking for a piano might want to keep in mind that, within limits, the sound of a particular piano can be changed. Dan Wilson dvw@bellcore.ARPA {ihnp4,ucbvax,allegra}!bellcore!dvw