trickey@alice.UucP (Howard Trickey) (10/06/85)
I'm about to buy a new grand piano, and would like some advice. (I haven't seen requests like this on this newsgroup, but if the required expertise lies anywhere it is probably with you.) Does anyone care to list brands of pianos in order of ascending quality (or personal preference), and fair price if known? I am only an intermediate player (easy movements of Beethoven Sonatas), and I'm worried that what I choose now might bother me if I get better. At the moment I could afford anything up to about $10,000. If I waited a year or so I could afford a Steinway-quality piano. Is the difference only something an expert notices? Are there any good books on buying and caring for pianos? Perhaps you should mail to me directly; I'll summarize if there is sufficient interest. Howard Trickey research!trickey trickey.btl@csnet-relay
jerry@uwmcsd1.UUCP (Jerry Lieberthal) (10/09/85)
> I'm about to buy a new grand piano, and would like some advice. > (I haven't seen requests like this on this newsgroup, but if the I have looked for about 10 years before I bought my piano. It is a Steinway model O (about 6'), which was built in 1894. I personally won't buy a piano any newer than about 60 years old. I also looked at Chickering, Baldwin, etc., and the biggies from Europe. I needed something that wouldn't outgrow me as I moved up in the area of difficulty. Of course, I was spoiled by my teachers Steinway concert grand from 1872, refinished in rosewood. My suggestion is to look at older pianos, and perhaps some that may require rebuilding. My piano cost me about $2500 for rebuilding, and I have never regretted it, especially since the replacement cost now would be about 8 times that amount.. -- ------------------------------------------------ - jerry University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee Computing Services Division {ihnp4, uwvax, uwmacc}!uwmcsd1!jerry uwmcsd1!jerry@wisc-rsch.ARPA
dave@cylixd.UUCP (Dave Kirby) (10/10/85)
[GENERIC LINE] In article <4400@alice.UUCP> trickey@alice.UucP (Howard Trickey) writes: ... >Does anyone care to list brands of pianos in order of ascending >quality (or personal preference), and fair price if known? ... >Perhaps you should mail to me directly; I'll summarize if there >is sufficient interest. -------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm going to go ahead and post, for two reasons. First, EMAIL is sometimes unreliable. Second, I want to stir up some controversy on this newsgroup with my humble opinions. I am a pianist myself, and have definite preferences concerning pianos. First, spinets are inferior to grands. (No controversy there.) The best spinet I have ever heard is the Kawai, and it sounds better than some grands. If you're looking for a good sounding piano without the grand piano price, the Kawai is definitely the way to go at about $1500. Now for the grands. I'll list them in order of quality, best first. (#1) Bosendorfer - The Rolls Royce of pianos, unquestionably the best piano in the world. Many pianists insist on using the Bosendorfer when they give a concert, even though Steinway often offers free usage of their pianos to celebrities and Bosendorfer charges a mint. In other words, many artists will forego the freebie offered by Steinway and insist on paying extra to get the Bosendorfer. Unfortunately, if you are looking in the $10K range, you won't be able to afford a Bosendorfer. I believe they start at around $25,000. The Bosendorfer is by far the best sounding piano I have ever heard. Most pianos just make a sound when you press the keys. The Bosendorfer SINGS. It is a true joy to listen to, and is the standard by which all other pianos should be judged. (#2) Yamaha Concert Grand - This nine-footer sounds much better than their cheaper grands. It sounds better than most other concert grands, as well. It is the closest to the Bosendorfer of all the competitors. The middle range is especially rich and melodious, much like that of the Bosendorfer, although not quite as crisp. (#3) Baldwin Concert Grand - Not as rich as the Yamaha, but much better than those below it. The Baldwin has a beautiful midrange, but its bass range lacks punch and its high range is somewhat dull. There has long been a controversy about which was the better piano, Baldwain or Steinway. You can see which side I'm on. (#4) Steinway - I was disappointed by the dullness of the Steinway. The midrange sounds like you're playing behind a thick curtain. Almost pure sine waves, very little harmonics. The bass range is very powerful, with rich harmonics. As you get up toward middle C, however, the harmonics disappear and the sound becomes dull. It sounds like the hammers are not quite hard enough. The high range is also dull, although not quite as dull as the Baldwin's. I don't like the Steinway. Steinways appear on many concert recordings, and Steinway by their freebie marketing has convinced the public that the true piano sound is dull and thuddy like their pianos. (#5) Kawai - Truly inferior to all of the above. Sound is harsh and glaring, much like those cheap baby grands. Kawai makes better spinets. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Kirby ( ...!ihnp4!akgub!cylixd!dave) (The views expressed herein are the exclusive property of Dave Kirby. Any person, living or dead, found with the same or similar opinions will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of law.)
rwfi@ur-tut.UUCP (Robert Fink) (10/12/85)
In article <4400@alice.UUCP> trickey@alice.UucP (Howard Trickey) writes: >I'm about to buy a new grand piano, and would like some advice. >(I haven't seen requests like this on this newsgroup, but if the >required expertise lies anywhere it is probably with you.) >Does anyone care to list brands of pianos in order of ascending >quality (or personal preference), and fair price if known? > >I am only an intermediate player (easy movements of Beethoven >Sonatas), and I'm worried that what I choose now might bother >me if I get better. At the moment I could afford anything up >to about $10,000. If I waited a year or so I could afford a >Steinway-quality piano. Is the difference only something >an expert notices? Are there any good books on buying and >caring for pianos? Here is my list, based on approximately 20 years experience shared between my wife and myself: OK: Kawai, Baldwin Nice: Yamaha Wow: Steinway I personally own a Steinway (as did Mom- guess its genetic) and I really do think that it's the best you can buy. They sound great, avoiding the overly bright tone of a lot of other pianos, and the touch (the REALLY crucial thing) is uniquely satisfying. Just a thought: why not investigate an used piano? Like wines, good pianos (if taken care of) improve with age. If my piano were to be (gasp) destroyed tomorrow, I'd go out and try to replace it with a 50 or so year old Steinway, not a new one. If this appeals to you, investigate any old Chickerings that you find-- they tend to have a lovely mellow sound. Of course, all this advice is based on my idea of what a piano should sound like, and may not transfer to anyone else. P.S. Used pianos are like used cars-- better look under the hood before you buy. Good luck,
carnes@gargoyle.UUCP (Richard Carnes) (10/13/85)
>(#2) Yamaha Concert Grand - This nine-footer sounds much better than > their cheaper grands. It sounds better than most other > concert grands, as well. It is the closest to the Bosendorfer > of all the competitors. The middle range is especially rich > and melodious, much like that of the Bosendorfer, although not > quite as crisp. I wonder if you are referring to the same Yamaha model a prototype of which was flown from Tokyo to Chicago in April 1983 for the American premiere of K. S. Sorabji's *Opus Clavicembalisticum* performed by Geoffrey Madge, an Australian pianist now residing in The Hague. I had a chance to run my fingers over the keys and it is an extremely responsive instrument. For reasons explained below there are very few pianos that could have stood up as well to the demands placed on the Yamaha by this recital. Sorabji's *Opus Clavicembalisticum* is the longest and most difficult piano composition that has ever been published (Sorabji has written at least one other that is longer). I was fortunate enough to be the pageturner for the American premiere, a feat in itself since the performance time of the work is four hours not counting intermissions. Not only is the work long, it is incredibly difficult and taxing for the pianist. It is scored on as many as seven staves, seldom less than four, and the pianist constantly has to be all over the keyboard at once. Madge, who specializes in music that hardly anyone else can play (Xenakis, for example), never faltered; he not only had complete technical command of the work, he made good music out of it as well. It was by a large margin the most astounding piano performance I have ever seen or heard. Madge spent 18 months doing nothing but studying the O.C. and has now performed it (I think) three times. The only other complete performance was the premiere given by Sorabji himself around 1930. Sorabji's music is like nothing else you have ever heard. The O.C. has been described as sounding like three pianists playing Busoni, Szymanowski, and Messiaen all at once. It is very contrapuntal and intense, highly structured with sets of variations, a passacaglia with 80-odd variations, fugues, toccatas, etc., and it was quite exciting in the climactic passages. It was evidently conceived as something like a 20th-century answer to the Art of the Fugue (the title means "Keyboard Work"). I found it very satisfying, although it was impossible to sustain one's concentration through a piano composition of such length and intensity. It may be a work that is better appreciated in memory than during the performance. Sorabji, now in his 90's and living in England, is the composer of the longest and most complex music in existence, including an orchestral work lasting eight hours, as well as miniatures that out-Webern Webern. He is a cult composer at this point, but reportedly he couldn't care less and writes only for his friends. Parts of the O.C. have been recorded by another pianist. A recording of Madge's performance in The Hague was issued as a limited edition, and a tape of his Chicago performance is in the possession of WFMT in Chicago. If anyone would like to try to order the limited edition recording, let me know and I will track down the details. Also if anyone would like to learn more about Sorabji I can send you copies of an article or two that I have. -- Richard Carnes, ihnp4!gargoyle!carnes
jerry@uwmcsd1.UUCP (Jerry Lieberthal) (10/14/85)
> [GENERIC LINE] > > In article <4400@alice.UUCP> trickey@alice.UucP (Howard Trickey) writes: > ... > >Does anyone care to list brands of pianos in order of ascending > >quality (or personal preference), and fair price if known? > ... > > Now for the grands. I'll list them in order of quality, best first. > > (#1) Bosendorfer - The Rolls Royce of pianos, unquestionably the best > The Bosendorfer is by far the best sounding piano I have ever > heard. Most pianos just make a sound when you press the keys. > The Bosendorfer SINGS. It is a true joy to listen to, and is > the standard by which all other pianos should be judged. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Dave Kirby ( ...!ihnp4!akgub!cylixd!dave) > I agree on the Bosendorfer .. you are *maybe* allowed to spend $25k or more, and get on their 15 year waiting list. One of the local colleges here has a concert grand, and it is that (grand!). If I had the money I would get one. I also remain faithful to >60 year old Steinways, though ... -- ------------------------------------------------ - jerry University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee Computing Services Division {ihnp4, uwvax, uwmacc}!uwmcsd1!jerry uwmcsd1!jerry@wisc-rsch.ARPA
jeffw@tekecs.UUCP (Jeff Winslow) (10/15/85)
> > I'm about to buy a new grand piano, and would like some advice. > > (I haven't seen requests like this on this newsgroup, but if the > > I have looked for about 10 years before I bought my piano. It is a > Steinway model O (about 6'), which was built in 1894. I personally won't > buy a piano any newer than about 60 years old. > > I also looked at Chickering, Baldwin, etc., and the biggies from Europe. > I needed something that wouldn't outgrow me as I moved up in the area of > difficulty. Of course, I was spoiled by my teachers Steinway concert grand > from 1872, refinished in rosewood. Oh, come now. Seems like nobody loves modern American Steinways, but I think you're overdoing it a bit. I seem to remember that the last major change in the scale in Steinways occured about 1900, so any Steinway previous to that is suspect of being less than the best in my mind. A friend of mine has one from 1895. He loves it, but it has some problems around C below middle C. One expert piano rebuilder I know considers the sound from the 1920's Steinways the best, and I tend to agree, especially if you really want to spend 10 grand on it. Well, maybe 12 grand (7 to get it and 5 to rebuild it). New ones cost that much, and you'll have to play it every day for 5 years and get and expert technician to work it over regularly to get an equivalent piano (maybe). OK, so I'm overdoing it a bit, too. But you get the idea. My piano? A ~6 foot Yamaha. It's not a Bechstein, or a Steinway, but it's almost as good, and it was a hell of a lot cheaper. $3750 used, 5 years ago (it was 4 years old then). You might check out Kawai also. Remember, no matter what they say, it has to sound good to *you*. Please note that I know much more about music than pianos, and some of the above is "off the top of my head". Jeff Winslow
jeffw@tekecs.UUCP (Jeff Winslow) (10/15/85)
> In article <4400@alice.UUCP> trickey@alice.UucP (Howard Trickey) writes: > ... > >Does anyone care to list brands of pianos in order of ascending > >quality (or personal preference), and fair price if known? > ... > >Perhaps you should mail to me directly; I'll summarize if there > >is sufficient interest. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > I'm going to go ahead and post, for two reasons. First, EMAIL is > sometimes unreliable. Second, I want to stir up some controversy on > this newsgroup with my humble opinions. > I am a pianist myself, and have definite preferences concerning pianos. > > Now for the grands. I'll list them in order of quality, best first. > > (#1) Bosendorfer - The Rolls Royce of pianos, unquestionably the best > piano in the world. Just thought I'd throw in my two cents. On rather limited experience, I'd say that Bosendorfers are unquestionably the best LOOKING pianos in the world. Oh, they're pretty. However, I'm not convinced they SOUND enough better than a rebuilt 20's Steinway to be worth the price difference. It's worth noting that some professional pianists apparently don't care for the Steinway action. That may be another reason why they go for the Bosendorfer. Once again, "off the top of my head". Are Bechsteins no longer made? Jeff Winslow
ong@eneevax.UUCP (Chong Ong) (10/16/85)
If you are looking around for an upright piano, be sure to check
out Knight.
Juey Chong Ong
ARPA: ong@eneevax.umd.edu
UUCP: {seismo, allegra, rlgvax}!umcp-cs!eneevax!ong
BITNET: ong%eneevax.arpa@WISCVMlinda@amdcad.UUCP (Linda Seltzer) (10/19/85)
In article <4400@alice.UUCP>, trickey@alice.UucP (Howard Trickey) writes: > I'm about to buy a new grand piano, and would like some advice. > (I haven't seen requests like this on this newsgroup, but if the > required expertise lies anywhere it is probably with you.) > Does anyone care to list brands of pianos in order of ascending > quality (or personal preference), and fair price if known? > I bought a piano in New Jersey in 1979 - I found a 1919 Steinway for only $3500. The price was low because the finish was not in good condition, but inside it is a fine musical instrument with a really nice sound. I found it in a piano store in Freehold. I suggest looking at classified ads in smaller, more rural areas in the East Coast and in the midwest, if possible, to find a good deal on a nice old Steinway. You can have a technician look it over before deciding whether to purchase it. It is cheaper to fly to Detroit (for example) and have the piano moved back to NJ than to pay $10,000 in Manhattan. Pianos also cost more than twice as much in California than they do in the East and Midwest, because there are fewer old pianos around. So ask your friends in different places to check around. Personally, I find of the old pianos much more mellow and enjoyable than the sound of the new ones. Also, you may already know this, but I think that old Everett uprights were made by the Steinway company, so they are worth considering. The old Chickering pianos would be work looking at too.
linda@amdcad.UUCP (Linda Seltzer) (10/19/85)
> > (#1) Bosendorfer - The Rolls Royce of pianos, unquestionably the best > piano in the world. Many pianists insist on using the Bosendorfer > when they give a concert, even though Steinway often offers free > usage of their pianos to celebrities and Bosendorfer charges > a mint. In other words, many artists will forego the freebie > offered by Steinway and insist on paying extra to get the > Bosendorfer. Unfortunately, if you are looking in the $10K > range, you won't be able to afford a Bosendorfer. I believe > they start at around $25,000. > The Bosendorfer is by far the best sounding piano I have ever > heard. Most pianos just make a sound when you press the keys. > The Bosendorfer SINGS. It is a true joy to listen to, and is > the standard by which all other pianos should be judged. A good Bosendorfer concert grand can cost as much as $75,000. However, Bosendorfer purchased the Kimball company several years ago and was going to improve the Kimball piano as a home instrument. I don't know how well this turned out - has anybody tried a new Kimball piano lately?