jimmy@scgvaxd.UUCP (J A Raisanen) (08/28/85)
Having no great knowledge of classical music, in specific, and liking all kinds of music in general (and proud of being Finnish) I have purchased and liked the two Sibelius' albums I have. On the cover of one is some critics' views of Sibelius. He mentioned that Sibelius is well known for his tone poems and is quite good at these specific compositions. I certainly liked them. Finlandia was one I believe that went over quite well with me. What does anyone else think of Sibelius' works? Please don't be too rough! Curious to learn. JR
speaker@gymble.UUCP (Speaker to Animals) (09/02/85)
In article <392@scgvaxd.UUCP> jimmy@scgvaxd.UUCP (PUT YOUR NAME HERE) writes: > > Sibelius is well known for his tone poems and is quite good at > these specific compositions. I certainly liked them. Finlandia > was one I believe that went over quite well with me. What does > anyone else think of Sibelius' works? Please don't be too rough! My favorite Sibelius works are his 7th and 5th Symphonys. Yes, Finlandia is also quite pleasent. I was never overly awed by his tone poems frankly. His symphonies have a starkness and power to them that is appealing. The Kalivala (whatever) is appalling as a "National Poem." Sorry to have to say that since I am half Finnish and have always been proud of the culture and my background. But really....
mmar@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP (Mitchell Marks) (09/03/85)
[Naw, I don't really believe there's a line-eater.] really believe there's a line-eater.
Well, I'm a deep romantic at heart, and I'm very fond of the Sibelius
second symphony.
JR, as our Finnish authority, what's the proper version of his first name?
[Sibelius is also known for a popular song: "Suomi, how I love ya, how I
love ya, my dear old Suomi!"]
--
-- Mitch Marks @ UChicago
...ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!mmarrdp@teddy.UUCP (09/03/85)
In article <392@scgvaxd.UUCP> jimmy@scgvaxd.UUCP (PUT YOUR NAME HERE) writes: >What does >anyone else think of Sibelius' works? Please don't be too rough! >Curious to learn. >JR When I was studying Baroque organ, I expressed to my teacher my fondness of Sibelius. His comment was that Sibelius is ok, as long as you like music searching desperately for a theme. However... The orchestral music of Sibelius is some of the only "modern" music (to me that means anything written after the death of Bach!) that I take pleasure in listening to. His symphonies (esp the later ones) conjure up very attractive images of quiet snowfalls in fir-tree laden Scandinavian mountains. Neat stuff. Unfortunately, the music community in general seems to pay token homage at best to his music. You seldom hear anything other than the 2nd symphony, Finlandia and the Swan of Tuonela (sp?) played by major orchestras. I think his violin concerto, however, is crap.
greg@olivee.UUCP (Greg Paley) (09/03/85)
> Having no great knowledge of classical music, in specific, and liking > all kinds of music in general (and proud of being Finnish) I have > purchased and liked the two Sibelius' albums I have. On the cover > of one is some critics' views of Sibelius. He mentioned that > Sibelius is well known for his tone poems and is quite good at > these specific compositions. I certainly liked them. Finlandia > was one I believe that went over quite well with me. What does > anyone else think of Sibelius' works? Please don't be too rough! > Curious to learn. > JR I wouldn't worry about someone being "too rough". Since no two "major" critics seem to agree on anything, the fact that you like them should be as valid a judgement for you as anything you read. Since you asked, though, I'll put in my own impressions of Sibelius' music. I find that the most consistent and striking characteristic of Sibelius is the simplicity of the thought conveyed. His music communicates what it has to say in a very direct, straightforward way. For this reason, it can appeal very well to both the unsophisticated listener and the "expert". For the former, no particular knowledge of musical structure or form is necessary to appreciate what is heard. For the latter, the charm and skill with which the music is crafted, as well as the honesty and ingenuousness of the expression embodied in it can make the music enjoyable and a pleasant relief from music listening that is wonderful but more taxing to the intellect and concentration, like the late Beethoven quartets. I find the 5th and 7th symphonies particularly enjoyable. I had some difficulty at first with the 4th symphony, mainly because of what I had read about it. Various critics talked about the depth and profundity hidden within the depths of this enigmatic work. I heard nothing of the sort and was, therefore, disappointed with what struck me as the apparent emptiness of the work. The first movement illustrates this particularly: a slow, impressive introduction building gradually, increasing your expectations, leading to - - - a brass snort and then, basically, nothing. Discarding what I had read about it, I realized that I was looking for something that the work wasn't and therefore was unable to appreciate it for the lovely, unprofound, writing that is there. As to the tone poems, I generally enjoy the Kalevala legends. Sometimes, though, for my tastes the shorter works degenerate into sugary "move music", such as "En Saga" and "Finlandia". However, some people have more of a musical "sweet tooth" than others, and I certainly wouldn't want to think that someone who has enjoyed this music should have that enjoyment spoiled because I, or anyone else, don't share the sentiment. - Greg Paley
cmpbsdb@gitpyr.UUCP (Don Barry) (09/05/85)
> > When I was studying Baroque organ, I expressed to my teacher my fondness > of Sibelius. His comment was that Sibelius is ok, as long as you like > music searching desperately for a theme. > Searching desperately for a theme? Let's look at the two styles in which Sibelius composed. The youthful stage, marked by many of the tone poems (not Tapiola), the first two symphonies, and partially the violin concerto, is marked by glorious themes of intense effect and easy remembrance. Why, the first symphony has much in common with Tchaikovsky. The "infinite waters" theme of the fourth movement is too striking to ever forget. By the time Sibelius composed the second symphony, however, he had begun to sojourn into the modern period somewhat, and was searching for new templates for his music that were not cliched with the old styles (however beautiful these may have been). The second symphony is wondrous in the formation/disintegration of themes in the first movement (Remember Sibelius' retort to Mahler: "The Symphony is beautiful because of its form and grammar") which still allows some beautiful themes to creep out. The third and fourth movements are continuous song. No theme missing here. > You seldom hear anything other > than the 2nd symphony, Finlandia and the Swan of Tuonela (sp?) played > by major orchestras. Unfortunately, after Koussevitsky's continual patronage, there came a somewhat dry period for Sibelius. Ormandy often programmed his works, but Colin Davis really became the champion Sibelius promoter in the 70's. (I recommend his recordings on Philips above all others for Sibelius' music). It's too bad Sir Colin hasn't toured more in the states, but I gather Sibelius has undergone a renascence in Europe. However, I think we'll see more Sibelius in the next 10 years. > I think his violin concerto, however, is crap. You're disagreeing with the major violinists of the world. It was always David Oistrakh's favorite concerto, and his recording with Ormandy is the best available (in my opinion). That beautiful fragment theme introduced on violin at the very beginning to re-appear only once in the close of the movement is one of those all-potent themes that so rarely fit into music. It's almost *too good* for the concerto, and I'm never satisfied at only getting to hear it twice, but then, I can't figure out another appropriate place in the movement for it. Like the innocence theme in Taneyev's second symphony, it has to make effect more through memory than repetition, because too-much-repetition would dilute it. I hate to see someone missing such a beautiful work. You might be disappointed with Heifetz' stern style if you first heard his version (although I like it too), so try the Oistrakh. In the third movement, listen to the clouds gather and form.. And at the very ending, hear the mists gather, to be dispersed by two great beams of sunlight. Don Barry (Chemistry Dept) CSnet: cmpbsdb%gitpyr@gatech.CSNET Georgia Institute of Technology BITNET: CMPBSDB @ GITVM1 Atlanta, GA 30332 UUCP: ...!{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!cmpbsdb
jeffw@tekecs.UUCP (Jeff Winslow) (09/05/85)
> The orchestral music of Sibelius ... [etc.] > > I think his violin concerto, however, is crap. I think the opening theme is exquisite. Too beautiful for reality. Jeff Winslow
chai@utflis.UUCP (Henry Chai) (09/05/85)
> Finlandia > was one I believe that went over quite well with me. Alas, "Finlandia" is a piece of ruined music for me. Back in Hong Kong, one or two decades ago, they tend to use classical music for 'sound tracks' in locally produced films. Said piece has been used, more than once, for HORROR movies! Now I can't listen to the opening of the piece without seeing a zombie (Chinese type!) crawling out of a coffin ! :-( -- Henry Chai Faculty of Library and Information Science, U of Toronto {watmath,ihnp4,allegra}!utzoo!utflis!chai
linda@amdcad.UUCP (Linda Seltzer) (09/07/85)
In article <392@scgvaxd.UUCP>, jimmy@scgvaxd.UUCP (J A Raisanen) writes: > was one I believe that went over quite well with me. What does > anyone else think of Sibelius' works? Please don't be too rough! > Curious to learn. > JR One of Symphonies (I think it's the Fifth) is very experimental and is quite excellent.
speaker@gymble.UUCP (Speaker to Animals) (09/15/85)
In article <1239@teddy.UUCP> rdp@teddy.UUCP (Richard D. Pierce) writes: > > When I was studying Baroque organ, I expressed to my teacher my fondness > of Sibelius. His comment was that Sibelius is ok, as long as you like > music searching desperately for a theme. And I sauppose we could also talk about the music of Mahler... Music that has little or nothing to say, but spends hours doing it anyway.
jeffw@tekecs.UUCP (Jeff Winslow) (09/17/85)
> In article <1239@teddy.UUCP> rdp@teddy.UUCP (Richard D. Pierce) writes: > > > > When I was studying Baroque organ, I expressed to my teacher my fondness > > of Sibelius. His comment was that Sibelius is ok, as long as you like > > music searching desperately for a theme. > > And I sauppose we could also talk about the music of Mahler... > > Music that has little or nothing to say, but spends hours doing it anyway. There are none so deaf as those who will not listen... Maybe you should learn the language! Jeff Winslow "Why do you hate this quote?"
carolo@tekig4.UUCP (Carol Ochsner) (09/18/85)
In article <336@gymble.UUCP> speaker@gymble.UUCP (Speaker to Animals) writes: >In article <1239@teddy.UUCP> rdp@teddy.UUCP (Richard D. Pierce) writes: >> >> When I was studying Baroque organ, I expressed to my teacher my fondness >> of Sibelius. His comment was that Sibelius is ok, as long as you like >> music searching desperately for a theme. > >And I sauppose we could also talk about the music of Mahler... > >Music that has little or nothing to say, but spends hours doing it anyway. Not to mention the master of this genre: Richard Wagner!
rwfi@ur-tut.UUCP (Robert Fink) (09/25/85)
Another Sibelius junkie comes out of the closet! Don't be ashamed. Personally,
I find Sibelius' symphonies (the 5th especially) some of the most satisfying
20th century symphonies; 20th century English music (Walton, Holst, etc.) is
heavily influenced by Sibelius' style, as see, for instance Walton's First
Symphony (1930?) in B-flat minor. When the great reckoning comes, and under-
rated composers like Nielsen, Zelenka, and Arthur Sullivan receive their due,
Sibelius' unique brand of post-tonality will be acknowledged to be as viable
as the vastly more respectable ones of Bartok and Stravinsky.
***** FINLANDIA ****** !!!karn@petrus.UUCP (Phil R. Karn) (09/25/85)
> >And I sauppose we could also talk about the music of Mahler... > > > >Music that has little or nothing to say, but spends hours doing it anyway. Hey, not everybody feels that way. Try the book "Late Night Thoughts on Listening to Mahler's Ninth Symphony", by Lewis Thomas. Phil
chris@laidbak.UUCP (Chris Granner) (09/29/85)
In article <133@ur-tut.UUCP> rwfi@ur-tut.UUCP (Robert Fink) writes: > ...Sibelius' unique brand of post-tonality will be acknowledged to > be as viable as the vastly more respectable ones of Bartok and Stravinsky. I'm sorry, but one has to work an awful lot harder than Sibelius did to escape tonality. The only people who were successful at this threw out the tonal system entirely, rather than just "avoiding" tonal tendancies (and of course Bartok (but NOT Stravinsky) is a cogent example of this). Flames aside, I'd be interested to know what you mean by "post-tonality." -cg ( ...!ihnp4!laidbak!chris ) hail eris all hail discordia
frith@trwrdc.UUCP (Lord Frith) (10/17/85)
In article <5691@tekecs.UUCP> jeffw@tekecs.UUCP (Jeff Winslow) writes: >>> >>> When I was studying Baroque organ, I expressed to my teacher my fondness >>> of Sibelius. His comment was that Sibelius is ok, as long as you like >>> music searching desperately for a theme. >> >> And I suppose we could also talk about the music of Mahler... >> >> Music that has little or nothing to say, but spends hours doing it anyway. > > There are none so deaf as those who will not listen... > > Maybe you should learn the language! > > Jeff Winslow Now now now.... let's not be judgmental! I spent a year and a half studying the Mahler symphonies... so you see I HAVE listened. Too often it's just one theme after the other... on and on and on and... He could have said everything he wanted to have said in half the time. -- seismo!trwrdc!root - Lord Frith "And I want you" "And I want you" "And I want you so" "It's an obsession"
frith@trwrdc.UUCP (Lord Frith) (10/17/85)
In article <258@tekig4.UUCP> carolo@tekig4Ochsner.UUCP (Carol Ochsner) writes: >>> >>> When I was studying Baroque organ, I expressed to my teacher my fondness >>> of Sibelius. His comment was that Sibelius is ok, as long as you like >>> music searching desperately for a theme. >> >> And I suppose we could also talk about the music of Mahler... >> >> Music that has little or nothing to say, but spends hours doing it anyway. > > Not to mention the master of this genre: Richard Wagner! Uuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhh.... well I can't agree with this. Yes, Wagner is lengthy and a bit pompous, but that's to be expected. At least Wagner's music GOES someplace. Mahler just seems to meander about endlessly! -- seismo!trwrdc!root - Lord Frith "And I want you" "And I want you" "And I want you so" "It's an obsession"
ellis@spar.UUCP (Michael Ellis) (10/22/85)
>> Not to mention the master of this genre: Richard Wagner! > >Uuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhh.... well I can't agree with this. Yes, Wagner >is lengthy and a bit pompous, but that's to be expected. At least >Wagner's music GOES someplace. Mahler just seems to meander about >endlessly! - Lord Frith Obviously then, either you or Mahler is lacking in sensitivity. Personally, I'm quite certain that the fault is not Mahler's. Perhaps you should listen to less demanding music. May I suggest Wellington's Victory, Pachelbel's Kanon, or Olivia Newton John? Should they be too much for you, you might consider selling your stereo and spending more time with the Muzak at McDonald's. -michael
jeffw@tekecs.UUCP (Jeff Winslow) (10/23/85)
> >> > >> And I suppose we could also talk about the music of Mahler... > >> > >> Music that has little or nothing to say, but spends hours doing it anyway. > > > > There are none so deaf as those who will not listen... > > > > Maybe you should learn the language! > > > > Jeff Winslow > > Now now now.... let's not be judgmental! I spent a year and a half > studying the Mahler symphonies... so you see I HAVE listened. Too > often it's just one theme after the other... on and on and on and... > He could have said everything he wanted to have said in half the time. > -- > > seismo!trwrdc!root - Lord Frith If *we* aren't going to be judgemental, why don't *you* word your opinions this way: "Music that has nothing to say to me." "It seems to me like just one theme after another." "He could have said everything that I understand in half the time." I have no trouble understanding Mahler's music, both subjectively and objectively (where I have studied it in this fashion). Each measure brings something new, interesting and appropriate. And I am not easily interested or entertained. Now I can understand someone being turned off by his style (intricate and emotional), although personally I love it. Are you sure that's not the real reason you feel as you do? (no Lord) Jeff Winslow
greg@olivee.UUCP (Greg Paley) (10/25/85)
> > >> > > >> And I suppose we could also talk about the music of Mahler... > > >> > > >> Music that has little or nothing to say, but spends hours doing it anyway. > > > > > > There are none so deaf as those who will not listen... > > > > > > Maybe you should learn the language! > > > > > > Jeff Winslow > > > I have no trouble understanding Mahler's music, both subjectively and > objectively (where I have studied it in this fashion). Each measure > brings something new, interesting and appropriate. And I am not easily > interested or entertained. > > Now I can understand someone being turned off by his style (intricate and > emotional), although personally I love it. Are you sure that's not the > real reason you feel as you do? > > (no Lord) Jeff Winslow Personally, I'm unable to fully agree with either side on this argument, since I can't make a single judgement about all of Mahler's music. I find tremendous skill in construction of elaborate layers of sound in all his works, and I also hear a subtlety and delicacy in the use of orchestral colors that even exceeds Richard Strauss. As to whether these gifts are deployed in the communication of a genuinely expressive content can be another thing. For me, it's sometimes yes, sometimes no. Someone else could say that this really has to do with my own perceptive limitations, and there's no way I can really argue that. The works that I hear as beautiful and expressive are the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th symphonies, slow movement of the 5th symphony, and some of the 9th, "Das Lied von der Erde", and a number of the vocal works, such as the delightful "Des Knaben Wunderhorn", the lovely "Lieder eines fahenden Gesellen" and the often exquisitely beautiful settings of poems by Friedrich Rueckert, particularly "Ich atmet einen Lindenduft" and "Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen". I hear expressiveness in the "Kindertotenlieder", but I find these so lugubrious that I don't care to listen to them. Aside from individual moments, the 5th Symphony (other than the slow movement), 6th and 8th symphonies completely lose me. I've tried and tried listening to them both on recordings (and I've tried pretty much all of them - Solti, Haitink, Bernstein for all three of these, as well as Ozawa (8th), Karajan and Abbado (5th - the Abbado being a live Salzburg tape)Barbirolli, Tennstedt, Levine (5th and 6th)) and in live performances. They just don't say anything to me. I keep trying. The 7th Symphony is starting to make sense to me, and this after fifteen years of listening to it. What I hear now is an extension of the message of the 3rd Symphony. I guess the fact that I keep listening to these things rather than ignoring them must indicate that somewhere deep down inside I must feel there's something there that I just haven't found yet. - Greg Paley
frith@trwrdc.UUCP (Lord Frith) (11/01/85)
In article <5778@tekecs.UUCP> jeffw@tekecs.UUCP (Jeff Winslow) writes: > > I have no trouble understanding Mahler's music, both subjectively and > objectively (where I have studied it in this fashion). Each measure > brings something new, interesting and appropriate. And I am not easily > interested or entertained. > > Now I can understand someone being turned off by his style (intricate and > emotional), although personally I love it. Are you sure that's not the > real reason you feel as you do? My complaints are entirely subjective. Yes Mahler is intricate. And boy is he emotional! A bit too much for my tastes. My major complaint is that Mahler's music just doesn't GO anywhere. I find myself sitting here gripping the edge of my chair and muttering to myself "get ON with it.... get ON WITH IT!" And when he has finally finished I ask myself "now where have we been?" And I find we really haven't gone far enough. I like music that has economy and a sense of purpose. Mahler washes his entire brain out at you. After a while it becomes numbing.
frith@trwrdc.UUCP (Lord Frith) (11/01/85)
In article <611@spar.UUCP> ellis@max.UUCP (Michael Ellis) writes: >> >> Wagner's music GOES someplace. Mahler just seems to meander about >> endlessly! - Lord Frith > > Obviously then, either you or Mahler is lacking in sensitivity. > Personally, I'm quite certain that the fault is not Mahler's. > > Perhaps you should listen to less demanding music. May I suggest > Wellington's Victory, Pachelbel's Kanon, or Olivia Newton John? Should > they be too much for you, you might consider selling your stereo and > spending more time with the Muzak at McDonald's. Tsk tsk... now look who's lacking in sensitivity. I'm not the only one with this view. Musicologists with far more experience and sensitivity than I have expressed these same misgivings with Mahler's music.
jeffw@tekecs.UUCP (Jeff Winslow) (11/05/85)
Time for a nasty swipe at musicologists... > Tsk tsk... now look who's lacking in sensitivity. I'm not the only one > with this view. Musicologists with far more experience and sensitivity > than I have expressed these same misgivings with Mahler's music. That ain't saying much. ;-) Jeff Winslow
jak@adelie.UUCP (Jeff Kresch) (11/06/85)
> (abridged) > > I like music that has economy and a sense of purpose. Mahler washes > his entire brain out at you. After a while it becomes numbing. Try the Das Lied Von Der Erde. (Bernstien with the Vienna is a great recording if it is still around). A very late work, and very compact (for Mahler) except for the last movement. I like the entire work now, but it took a number of years for my appreciation of the sixth movement to catch up with my appreciation for the first five.