arndt@lymph.DEC (04/30/85)
Colin Rafferty says, "What the main problem of most Creationists have is
that they are afraid of, not their own, but mankind's mortality."
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Paul Dubois has dealt with the rest of his lack of clear thinking, I'll
just offer a few comments (do I hear an 'Amen' from the rear of the
congregation? - "AMEN" - Thank you!).
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I think that he has it backwards!
It is precisely the 'creationist' believer in a God who has given meaning
to the dance who can bridge the existential gap created by the thought of
the collective as well as the individual death. My word, what ever
is the whole message of Christianity? "Death where is thy sting? Death is
swallowed up in victory!" Etc, etc, etc. BECAUSE PAUL WHO WROTE THOSE LINES
WAS HIMSELF, AND RELIED UPON, THE EYEWITNESS ACCOUNTS OF THE RESURECTION OF
JESUS CHRIST WHICH VALIDATED HIS (CHRIST'S) CLAIMS TO BE GOD APPEARING IN
THE FLESH AND OVERCOMING DEATH! Christ died for ALL mankind, so all have
an opportunity to be saved. Remember the bumper sticker that's so much
fun to laugh about? Where does he save and how much does he have in the
bank? (Jesus Saves!) It's saves from DEATH.
It's well you point out that the non-creationists fear the extinction of the
race. Perhaps you recall the reviewers panning the novel of Nevile Shute,
ON THE BEACH, which depicted the wipe out of mankind by nuclear war. A
topic of current concern as you say. The Extentialist movement in philosophy
so recently out of fad built it's appeal on just this point. So much of
modern art, story and song depicts a fear of extinction. As does much
strutting and posturing and whistling in the dark that goes on along with
the smarmy sentiments about the individual living on in the life of the
race and so having meaning. All that goes down the toilet if we ALL go
up in smoke. The existentialist answer is to look death right in the
eye and say it doesn't matter - the moment matters, DO something! Affirm,
since we can't be 'sure' of ANYTHING it seems, SOMETHING!
It's so 'modern' and 'young' and 'Rosen' to be unafraid of death, ain't it?
"Look at me with my health, youth, and low credit card balance, I'm not
afraid of death!" But that cheap untested facile nerdy statement is not
able to hold up under the years, I think.
Robert Lewis in THE RAVEN! Remember he lost his beloved in the prime
of life. Want to jump off a bridge, read THE RAVEN - really read his
heart's cry some lonely dark evening. "Will I ever see my Lenore again?
he asks. And the raven keeps saying 'Nevermore!'. No answer, only
"Horror, Horror" (Capt. Kurtz).
Contrast this with, for instance King Solomon in the Old Testament when
his baby died. He amazed his servents by stopping mourning and going
right on with life. His answer to them was, "He (the child) cannot
come back to me, but I will go to him."
Or go to yet another funeral and hear the vacuous sentiments expressed
in a non-Christian (read non-evangelical) service. "Live on in the
hearts of those of us left behind." Remember your great grandfather,
do you? It's 'in' to laugh at a false picture of Christian belief.
I remember a Laugh In scene at the undertakers. Looking down at the
departed one guy says "He's not dead, only sleeping." The other guy
says, "Wanna bet he's dead?" Ha Ha. "He'll live on in our hearts."
"Wanna bet?" No it's not pretty. It's a cheap dirty trick.
Even those empty phrases about 'us' carrying on are torn from view
in modern life and we realize we can loose the whole bannana! And some
nitwit stands up in the back and says "Fear not, it's natural." Like
a high fibre breakfast cereal - 'Death is the breakfast of all mankind.'
Like cuts and bruises, polio and C Interuptus are 'natural'. But are
they right, moral, the way things 'ought' to be? To say that's the way
they ARE is no answer. Unless you love 'em.
Wait mom. There's nothing on my slide rule about death! What a relief.
It's not 'real'. A non question.
I spell relief (from death) S C I E N C E ! Or the one I like best,
R E A S O N.
The Christian believes in the ETERNAL destiny of mankind under a loving God!
Where the heck did you learn about Creationists/Christians, Colin?
If the world were to end tomorrow the Christain could still plant a tree
today! Because he has a REASON to you see. There is meaning to life.
What he does HERE and NOW has meaning into eternity. Works will be
rewarded and judged! Remember you don't get there by works!
Remember Bill's question: "To be or not to be?" Resist or pack it in?
No answers from Evolutionists! THEY are the ones who live on wishing
it were so! The Christian has REASONS, the historical records, and the
logic of the case and the experience, by choosing these assumptions, of
finding something that WORKS and one can LIVE with.
But he gets sillier sad to say.
Colin says: "By believing that they were placed here, they don't
have to worry about what could destroy mankind, but Evolutionists do. The
political forces that lean toward Nuclear War are invariably Creationists:
Reagan, Faldwell (who he?), etc. Those against are invariably Evolutionists"
Again, the major thrust of Christianity is to RESCUE mankind from
death and the results of the 'fall'. What utter twattle you spout!
My word Colin. You've got to be seven years old, in which case get
off your father's terminal before I tell him, or you are still in Public High
School and I don't hold you opinions too much against you, poor guy.
Preachin' ? You bet.
Keep chargin'
Ken Arndtgadfly@ihu1m.UUCP (Gadfly) (05/02/85)
-- > It is precisely the 'creationist' believer in a God who has given > meaning to the dance who can bridge the existential gap created by > the thought of the collective as well as the individual death. > My word, what ever is the whole message of Christianity? "Death > where is thy sting? Death is swallowed up in victory!" Etc... > > The existentialist answer is to look death right in the > eye and say it doesn't matter - the moment matters, DO something! > Affirm, since we can't be 'sure' of ANYTHING it seems, SOMETHING! > > I spell relief (from death) S C I E N C E ! Or the one I like best, > R E A S O N. > > The Christian believes in the ETERNAL destiny of mankind under a > loving God!... > > Preachin' ? You bet. > > Keep chargin' > Ken Arndt Eloquently said, Ken. But it's not science. So what? So what, indeed. Science speaks to "how", not "why". You've got your "why", which, like so many fundamentalist-types, you assume to be the only possible answer. Have you noticed how dogmatic folks of all persuasions are like that? And thus do I lump you and Rosen together. Maybe you find the "how" stuff boring, or irrelevant, but scientists keep at least each other amused with it. The scientific method does not speak at all to the real pith of the human condition--it does not claim to--but, as Galileo allegedly said of the earth, "nevertheless, it moves." Oh Ken, you ungrateful wretch, you reject the madness in its method. Question authority! Always question authority! And now, a word from our sponsor: Creationism is *by definition* not science. The theory of evolution may be impeachable, but it is a scientific theory. People can profess whatever explanations for things they find satisfying, as is their right in this country, so long as they keep the non-scientific parts out of public school science materials. Science deals only with a method for understanding natural processes. Of course, science classroom curricula have always stressed "facts" and "right answers". Thus, the creationists can hardly be blamed for trying the same approach. We're back live: Well, Ken, I'm glad you've found the consolation you need about death. As for me, I never was one to cram for a test. I'll see the questions--and the answers--soon enough. Besides, I hear that God (a) gives interesting exams that you can't really study for, and (b) doesn't grade on a curve. -- *** *** JE MAINTIENDRAI ***** ***** ****** ****** 01 May 85 [12 Floreal An CXCIII] ken perlow ***** ***** (312)979-7188 ** ** ** ** ..ihnp4!iwsl8!ken *** ***
dsr@uvacs.UUCP (Dana S. Richards) (05/03/85)
> > > Colin Rafferty says, "What the main problem of most Creationists have is > that they are afraid of, not their own, but mankind's mortality." > > It is precisely the 'creationist' believer in a God who has given meaning > to the dance who can bridge the existential gap created by the thought of > the collective as well as the individual death. My word, what ever > is the whole message of Christianity? "Death where is thy sting? Death is > swallowed up in victory!" Etc, etc, etc. > What follows here is an inexcusably long sermon on the evangelical (only it seems) christian view that death is not to be feared, etc etc ... Arndt is I fear really not aware of the objection since he is so wrapped up in his rhetoric. The point is that christians, myself included, believe this because of their inability to face death. If Arndt denies this I would say he is sufficiently indoctrinated that he is truly unaware of it. (I would rank the beliefs of someone you respect as an even more impelling reason to subscribe to a religious belief, by the way.) What the dogma says about death is a secondary issue. Arndt also feels it is peurile to remark that death is natural! > But he gets sillier sad to say. > > Colin says: "By believing that they were placed here, they don't > have to worry about what could destroy mankind, but Evolutionists do. The > political forces that lean toward Nuclear War are invariably Creationists: > Reagan, Faldwell (who he?), etc. Those against are invariably Evolutionists" > > Again, the major thrust of Christianity is to RESCUE mankind from > death and the results of the 'fall'. What utter twattle you spout! > My word Colin. You've got to be seven years old, in which case get > off your father's terminal before I tell him, or you are still in Public > High School and I don't hold you opinions too much against you, poor guy. > > Preachin' ? You bet. > Obviously he is not saying christians advocate war; only that they are (marginally we hope) more predisposed to not fear the worst. But Arndt's double use of RESCUE is inexcusable.
brower@fortune.UUCP (Richard Brower) (05/03/85)
In article <1928@decwrl.UUCP> arndt@lymph.DEC writes: >Robert Lewis in THE RAVEN! Please credit this to E. A. Poe, who wrote it. > Again, the major thrust of Christianity is to RESCUE mankind from >death and the results of the 'fall'. What utter twattle you spout! Christians who rescue witches from death by burning them to death. Using gay people as tinder to make a foul enough flame. Or even moderen evangelical thought (as Raygun, Falwell, and followers) saving the world with atomic bombs. But none of this has any relevence to origins, creationism, or evolution, so I'll quit here.